The fact we have people talking about it is good. Hopefully this gets noticed.
My biggest issue is survivability.
Howitzer Balance
17 Apr 2014, 19:24 PM
#21
Posts: 1595 | Subs: 2
The views and opinions expressed in my posts and topics are solely those of the Napalm. These views and opinions do not necessarily represent those of Relic, the developers, The Angry Bears and/or any/all contributors to this site.
17 Apr 2014, 19:30 PM
#22
Posts: 2053
The fact we have people talking about it is good. Hopefully this gets noticed.
My biggest issue is survivability.
Correction, THE biggest issue is survivability. That is a fact. 600 MP cannot die any easier, especially when one click of a call in can wipe it out, gun and all. I don't mind frequent decrewings, but all static emplacements need to survive much longer.
17 Apr 2014, 19:50 PM
#23
Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1
At VET3, the german howitzer has longer range because it gets a bonus.
Edit: The ML-20 actually also has a range boost at vet 3. Only the B4 does not get a range boost.
I only have 2 problems with howitzer balance.
1: Jeager Armor. The elephant requires arty to counter, and the same doctrine has recon+bomb.
2: Luftwaffe support. The fuel>ammo ability, in combination with a cheap recon and a bombstrike, make it way too easy to take out howitzers. For only 50 fuel and 40 ammo, you can take out a howitzer.
Oops it seems I pressed quote instead of edit.
17 Apr 2014, 20:24 PM
#24
3 
Posts: 587
hhmmm all artillery have the same range 250 by default and 332.5 in VET 3
http://coh2-stats.herokuapp.com/explosive_weapons
ML-20 Howitzer
Veterancy 2
-15% Scatter
+30% Rotation
-25% Ability Recharge
Veterancy 3
+33% Range
German Howitzer
Veterancy 2
-15% Scatter
+30% Rotation
-25% Ability Recharge
Veterancy 3
+33% Range
http://coh2-stats.herokuapp.com/explosive_weapons
ML-20 Howitzer
Veterancy 2
-15% Scatter
+30% Rotation
-25% Ability Recharge
Veterancy 3
+33% Range
German Howitzer
Veterancy 2
-15% Scatter
+30% Rotation
-25% Ability Recharge
Veterancy 3
+33% Range
17 Apr 2014, 20:38 PM
#25
2 
Posts: 1108
Soviet howitzer is so much better and hard hitting. You can easily destroy German buildings in 2-3 salvos. The balance with arty is fine, ppl find things to complain about anyway they can.
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17 Apr 2014, 20:44 PM
#26
Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1
hhmmm all artillery have the same range 250 by default and 332.5 in VET 3
http://coh2-stats.herokuapp.com/explosive_weapons
ML-20 Howitzer
Veterancy 2
-15% Scatter
+30% Rotation
-25% Ability Recharge
Veterancy 3
+33% Range
German Howitzer
Veterancy 2
-15% Scatter
+30% Rotation
-25% Ability Recharge
Veterancy 3
+33% Range
Not all, the B4 only ever has 250.
18 Apr 2014, 00:05 AM
#27
Posts: 2561
Yes, artillery in general is pretty useless. They are valued way high for being able to attack the enemy base, while their use in actual battle is crappy, vulnerable, and expensive.
I think I'd much rather they cut the range so it couldn't barrage the enemy base from within your own base and then made it fire faster and the rounds hit faster and sell it for 400mp. Would make it less of investment for something that gets killed so easily and increase it's use in battle.
I think I'd much rather they cut the range so it couldn't barrage the enemy base from within your own base and then made it fire faster and the rounds hit faster and sell it for 400mp. Would make it less of investment for something that gets killed so easily and increase it's use in battle.
18 Apr 2014, 00:25 AM
#28
Posts: 1162
I only have 2 problems with howitzer balance.
1: Jeager Armor. The elephant requires arty to counter, and the same doctrine has recon+bomb.
2: Luftwaffe support. The fuel>ammo ability, in combination with a cheap recon and a bombstrike, make it way too easy to take out howitzers. For only 50 fuel and 40 ammo, you can take out a howitzer.
Yes number 1 is a big problem because the correct counter is already hard countered.
Number 2 not so bad seen as an air support doctrine is a perfect doctrine to counter static defences just like real life. Having a doc hard counter a other is ok. So long as there are docs which hard counter the air support. It's only like coh1 in that respect.
Having howies survive arty strikes with 5% HP is a really cool idea. Would really increase play around them, both attacking and defending, would be more like the play around a pak43 is now.
On a side note, there are certainly times I've noticed at the end of a game that a perfect counter to what my enemy had would have been a howie and that they had the incorrect doc for countering it. So maybe a clever player would bait people into certain docs, to then counter with a howie.. Kinda like coh1 Germans doing T3 terror fakie, but then going T2 defensive.
18 Apr 2014, 00:45 AM
#29
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
I´m just gonna add some colorful fact: should satchel charges destroy howitzers ? Cause right now they leave them on 2-5% health.
Have done 2 blitz m3 + penals into enemy base and always the same result. Next time i know i will damage it first with either precision strike or katyuskas.
Anyway, i prefer german howitzer not for their characteristics, but because it can´t get countered easily.
Have done 2 blitz m3 + penals into enemy base and always the same result. Next time i know i will damage it first with either precision strike or katyuskas.
Anyway, i prefer german howitzer not for their characteristics, but because it can´t get countered easily.
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And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
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And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
18 Apr 2014, 00:54 AM
#30
Posts: 1162
I think the key is to sit down and think hard about which docs are good to us howies against ( particularly as soviets), now identify on load screen if enemy has/is likely to use it. Now during game keep eyes peeled for que to build your howie.
Only real major problem is the Eli doc having instant hard counter.
Only real major problem is the Eli doc having instant hard counter.
18 Apr 2014, 03:55 AM
#31
5 
Posts: 1157 | Subs: 2
I have had several games in which both me and my opponent get our arty pieces out at roughly the same time. Every single game we end up artying each others howies, and every time the German howie has won. Feels kind of cheap.
18 Apr 2014, 06:31 AM
#32
Posts: 807
SSHeini, just be honest with me, how many times have you built and used ML-20?
I bet none.
So why are you still talking?
I allways was in my posts.
As anyone who loves this game have build and tried ALL of this weapons in multiplayer or skirmish. ALL of them.
My line was referring strictly to damage, not to other features like range or ROF. And yes, from what I have seen, speaking of damage inflicted, I dare to say I prefer the soviet howitzer. Like it was said before, on small maps, the range doesn't even matter.
I think howitzers comparaison is one of the last things Relic needs to focus now.
18 Apr 2014, 06:34 AM
#33
Posts: 807
SSHeini, just be honest with me, how many times have you built and used ML-20?
I bet none.
So why are you still talking?
... if you tell me a way to show you my bulletins progression on soviet howitzer I will show it to you and you will see if it was used or not.
...so.. why are you still posting unfounded accusations?
18 Apr 2014, 07:09 AM
#34
Posts: 708 | Subs: 1
Both howitzers have same range. Peoples, talking it's not same - lie.
And i prefer german howitzer because it's haven't cooldown. Unlike soviet with more than minute waiting after last shot (70 sec).
And i prefer german howitzer because it's haven't cooldown. Unlike soviet with more than minute waiting after last shot (70 sec).
18 Apr 2014, 07:17 AM
#35
Posts: 644
If you look at the overall balance it would make more sense, the German faction has more offmap strikes and many more commanders with recon plane to deal with emplacements and static defenses.
I find this a bit funny tbh, because the Soviets have almost no static defenses.
Personally, I think their 600 MP costs make them mutually exclusive to winning the game, except maybe in comedy game modes like 3on3+.
I'd really like to see howitzers feature in 1on1 engagements, but for that to happen their MP cost must be reduced considerably.
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blow one up, slap it around
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18 Apr 2014, 08:34 AM
#36
4 Posts: 505
I look forward to seeing how AA is buffed in the coming path (if it is at all). I think survivability is without doubt the main issue right now. Commander abilities are also a pretty big issue, in this respect, with some Ost commanders having recon + offensive strikes.
I think if you're going to be building arty pieces you should also have to invest in some AA as an insurance policy against enemy no-brainer air strikes. This would a, give AA more of a role in the game than it has now and B, force enemies to mount ground strikes against your arty pieces (if not only to take out your AA before calling in air support).
I think if you're going to be building arty pieces you should also have to invest in some AA as an insurance policy against enemy no-brainer air strikes. This would a, give AA more of a role in the game than it has now and B, force enemies to mount ground strikes against your arty pieces (if not only to take out your AA before calling in air support).
18 Apr 2014, 08:40 AM
#37
2 Posts: 83
I look forward to seeing how AA is buffed in the coming path (if it is at all). I think survivability is without doubt the main issue right now. Commander abilities are also a pretty big issue, in this respect, with some Ost commanders having recon + offensive strikes.
I think if you're going to be building arty pieces you should also have to invest in some AA as an insurance policy against enemy no-brainer air strikes. This would a, give AA more of a role in the game than it has now and B, force enemies to mount ground strikes against your arty pieces (if not only to take out your AA before calling in air support).
Yeah I think AA should be able to deny aircraft strikes within a certain (small) radius when you put it in some sort of AA only mode where it only targets aircraft.
18 Apr 2014, 09:31 AM
#38
Posts: 1162
One thing to bear in mind is that calls ain't toooo cheap. So if you do want a howie, pressure enemy munis and also try to make them do things like waste of rifle nade and fausts. Calling a recon and a strike is a lot of muni, probably just as hard to get if not harder than the 600 MP cost.
However this is easier said than done. Probably more applicable to 1v1s.
However this is easier said than done. Probably more applicable to 1v1s.
18 Apr 2014, 09:46 AM
#39
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
One thing to bear in mind is that calls ain't toooo cheap. So if you do want a howie, pressure enemy munis and also try to make them do things like waste of rifle nade and fausts. Calling a recon and a strike is a lot of muni, probably just as hard to get if not harder than the 600 MP cost.
However this is easier said than done. Probably more applicable to 1v1s.
There are 3 doctrines that can do it, two of them have abilities allowing conversion of other resources to muni, third one isn't muni intensive at all and its not like there is a muni shortage after mid game.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
18 Apr 2014, 09:58 AM
#40
Posts: 2819
As long as howitzers are so easily destroyed its hard to talk about balance. They always go up in smoke.
+1
All posts made are about situations in 2v2's. Not a 1v1 player.
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