To those supporting this patch's "balance"...

Copied from page 4 of this thread: http://www.coh2.org/topic/15789/what-the-....-is-up-with-the-germans

Let us explore the facts of this patch.

Grenadiers cost 240 Manpower and will reliably beat Conscripts in all combat situations, regardless of upgrades, by simply sitting in light or heavy cover. Even charging Conscripts is viable if you have two Grenadiers to his one Conscript. If met with a crewed weapon, one need only to launch a rifle grenade on it and continue to flank or advance towards the weapon with minimal deviation from his original route. Late game, Grenadiers can still get away with suiciding through multiple Soviet tanks (and their machine guns) to kill ZiS weapons and the like, and faust most of the Soviet vehicles before having to retreat. Vet retention is very good unless met with something such as an ISU-152.

Conscripts cost 240 Manpower and will beat Pioneers provided that they enter cover first and are at least at medium to long range. Against Grenadiers, they will lose very handedly even if in cover. Charging two Conscripts towards a Grenadier is asking to have one squad wiped and the other damaged to the point of having to retreat. If met with an MG42, the user must use Ura! to exit the VERY wide arc of fire of the MG, or to get close enough to loose a Molotov onto its crew (assuming the Cons become suppressed, they MG user will have ample time to pack up and move). Attempting to charge an MG is asking to get your face removed, and supported crew weapons are even deadlier as Grenadiers out-DPS you at all ranges, and Pioneers will beat you at point blank range. Late game, Soviet infantry is easily chewed up by Axis hull and co-axial weapons; a Panther is capable of being a mobile suppression platform with the top MG mounted. Attempting to charge an Axis tank to loose a magnetic AT grenade is suicide and usually amounts to a dead Conscript squad. Trying to charge past Axis units to kill a PaK also yields dead infantry.

Penal Battalions Companies cost 270 manpower and will beat Grenadiers and Pioneers at close range provided the Grenadiers lack an MG42, and the Pioneers lack a Flammenwerfer. At long ranges, Penal troops will easily be beaten by Grenadiers, even if the latter is not in cover, and the former is. If faced with an MG42, the Penal troops have no option but to halt and hope to kill the crew before becoming suppressed--they have no ability to Ura! out of harms way until reaching Vet2 (a weedy prospect at best). If you do manage to close with a crewed weapon, your only throw-able option is a satchel charge, that, with a 5 second fuse, is of dubious value against a wary opponent. The only boon of the charge is its ability to now demolish a bunker with one go, but this again assumes you were able to make it to the bunker. Late game, lacking any AT capabilities, Penal troops are more often than not dead weight. Attempting to use them meets the same results as Conscripts, although you may be able to tackle a crewed weapon or lone Grenadier before needing to retreat or being wiped out.

Panzergrenadiere cost 340 manpower and will handedly and quickly beat all manner of enemy infantry at any range, no matter if standing still or charging, with only Shock Troops requiring them to stop and stand their ground for fear of getting beaten at only the closest of ranges. If faced with a crewed weapon, their DPS output is often high enough to kill the gunner before they can be suppressed, and, in any event, their bundled grenade has a long enough range to wipe the crew before being suppressed as well. Late game, Panzergrenadiere can be issued with a pair of Panzerschrecks, with four 'Shrecks being capable of wiping out a T-34 obr 1942 (e.g. T-34/76) with a single volley of fire. With this upgrade, ALL Soviet vehicles, even the ISU-152 and Kliment Voroshilov-series of tanks are forced to retreat in the face of even a pair of Panzergrenadiere. Even with Panzershrecks mounted, PGs retain enough DPS to be able to beat a Conscript squad at close to medium range, and still retain their bundled grenade. Capable of warding off Soviet infantry and vehicles merely by their appearance on the field, Panzergrenadiere have no trouble reaching crewed ZiS weapons, removing them and denying their crucial presence to the Soviets.

Guards Riflemen cost 360 manpower and are limited to a doctrinal existence, and will lose to any Axis infantry squad unless the DP-28 upgrade is researched, regardless of cover. If met with a team weapon, Guards can at least create a window of escape with their RGD-33 hand grenade that can wipe the crew or at least kill the gunner. With DPs researched, Guards possess (from experience) a 50/50 chance of beating Grenadiers (that lack the LMG42 upgrade) at medium to short range, Pioneers at medium to long range, and Panzergrenadiere if the lattermost is out of cover and/or charging towards their position. Their default armament of two PTRS-41 14.5mm anti-materiel rifles are capable of two or three shotting the 222 armored car and the 251 halftrack, but are worth little even against the rear of anything other than the two aforementioned targets. The PTRS, is, however, a very effective anti-bunker weapon. With the DP upgrade purchased, Guards can choose to button an enemy vehicle, forcing it to a crawl and disabling its weapons (often the only thing capable of stopping an Axis vehicle rush). Late game, only their button ability makes their presence worthwhile, as they will either be rifle-grenaded to death, charged down by multiple Panzergrenadiere, or run over by an Axis vehicle using the Blitzkrieg ability. Attempting to use them to charge up to crewed weapons is an exercise in frustration, as both the PTRS rifle and the DP light machine gun do not fire on the move. Guards are just as "squishy" as Conscripts and Penal troops, and thus, charging Axis vehicles with them usually yields a squad of dead light infantry.

Panzergrenadiere cost 280 manpower

What?

This is what I've been told. Le sigh, let me go in game and double check that. That that's the only thing you bothered to comment on concerns me a wee bit.

honestly, this post is complete crap.

I understand that this patch has some issues, mainly conscripts underperforming.
But gaurds with dp's beat EVERY single INFANTRY unit in the game.
You could say that panzergrenadiers beat gaurds, but thats like saying that cons beat grens.
Penals, well i'd say penals are pretty good for 270 mp, and at close range, they actually have a decent chance againts lmg grens (primaraly because grens are very fragile)

Also, late game balance is going to get adjusted next patch, and that's all that matters.

I really hope pioneers don't get a nerf,i like the fact that pios are combat troops ( I MEAN THEY ARE PIONEERS),however combat engineers could be made cheaper or be given a 40 munitons 4x pssh upgrade.

I say this as a 70% soviet player.

Cmon man, anyone here agrees about the imbalanced grens vs cons.
Don't need to start another thread..

if you want a serious discussion should probably remove the last 2 paragraphs

Cmon man, anyone here agrees about the imbalanced grens vs cons.
Don't need to start another thread..

+1

Too many threads : /

OP, you mix real issues, with false data n subjetive POVs.

JESUS CHRIST TL: DR

JESUS CHRIST TL: DR

read it and regretted it instantly

read it and regretted it instantly

"regretted instantly"

honestly, this post is complete crap.

I understand that this patch has some issues, mainly conscripts underperforming.
But gaurds with dp's beat EVERY single INFANTRY unit in the game.
You could say that panzergrenadiers beat gaurds, but thats like saying that cons beat grens.
Penals, well i'd say penals are pretty good for 270 mp, and at close range, they actually have a decent chance againts lmg grens (primaraly because grens are very fragile)

Also, late game balance is going to get adjusted next patch, and that's all that matters.

I really hope pioneers don't get a nerf,i like the fact that pios are combat troops ( I MEAN THEY ARE PIONEERS),however combat engineers could be made cheaper or be given a 40 munitons 4x pssh upgrade.

I say this as a 70% soviet player.

I've killed DP guards with Pio's. So apparently they do not.

honestly, this post is complete crap.

I understand that this patch has some issues, mainly conscripts underperforming.
But gaurds with dp's beat EVERY single INFANTRY unit in the game.
You could say that panzergrenadiers beat gaurds, but thats like saying that cons beat grens.
Penals, well i'd say penals are pretty good for 270 mp, and at close range, they actually have a decent chance againts lmg grens (primaraly because grens are very fragile)

Also, late game balance is going to get adjusted next patch, and that's all that matters.

I really hope pioneers don't get a nerf,i like the fact that pios are combat troops ( I MEAN THEY ARE PIONEERS),however combat engineers could be made cheaper or be given a 40 munitons 4x pssh upgrade.

I say this as a 70% soviet player.

Shrecked pgrens beat DP guards on equal vet.

Shrecked pgrens beat DP guards on equal vet.

I think I'm reading what you said wrong. You're saying that shrecked PGs can beat a full squad of guards with DP at an equal level of vet bonus?

Yet another soviet cry thread.

Yet another soviet cry thread.

another naziboo with a reichfanboy name

This is what I've been told. Le sigh, let me go in game and double check that. That that's the only thing you bothered to comment on concerns me a wee bit.

Translation: "my opinion is based entirely on hearsay, and I have no actual experience with this game."

Translation: "my opinion is based entirely on hearsay, and I have no actual experience with this game."

"I never effing touched the Ostheer after the patch hit because after getting smashed repeatedly by complete morons, I had no desire whatsoever to go within 20 feet of that faction, nor did I ever feel an urge to spawn a mob of Panzergrenadiere out of my anus."*

Fix'd.

I feel like it should be mandatory to have your playercard displayed on the forum if you want to make balance threads XD

Translation: "my opinion is based entirely on hearsay, and I have no actual experience with this game."

spot on diagnosis doctor. the board is fully behind on this one.

"I never effing touched the Ostheer after the patch hit because after getting smashed repeatedly by complete morons, I had no desire whatsoever to go within 20 feet of that faction, nor did I ever feel an urge to spawn a mob of Panzergrenadiere out of my anus."*

Fix'd.

So, you're telling me, you have absolutely no experience on how a faction plays in any way, shape or form, yet you feel informed enough and - somehow - correct in talking about it?

Good god the arrogance is strong in this one.