The More I Play Soviets the More I Like It

Yes I agree. Now care to share your opinion on why a More expesive AI only, inflexibile, doctrine confined Infantry Shock squad should be required to expend muni to close the Gap on Pgrens?

That would be akin to saying that a Panther should pop smoke to get up on an SU85.

Throwing satchels at bunkers feels really satisfying. Losing entire squads to gren spam in well under a second not so much. :/

Yes I agree. Now care to share your opinion on why a More expesive AI only, inflexibile, doctrine confined Infantry Shock squad should be required to expend muni to close the Gap on Pgrens?

That would be akin to saying that a Panther should pop smoke to get up on an SU85.

Popping smoke in front of an SU-85 is rarely a bad idea.

Shocks come in multiple doctrines, more doctrines than Germans have with Elefants or Tigers or MHTs or AssGrens or Ostruppen. We all have to make doctrine choices relevant to our circumstances, if you are having problems with infantry then you can't go wrong with shocks. I'd be happy to take a look at a replay of yours, give you some tips from the German playing perspective.

Popping smoke in front of an SU-85 is rarely a bad idea.

Shocks come in multiple doctrines, more doctrines than Germans have with Elefants or Tigers or MHTs or AssGrens or Ostruppen. We all have to make doctrine choices relevant to our circumstances, if you are having problems with infantry then you can't go wrong with shocks. I'd be happy to take a look at a replay of yours, give you some tips from the German playing perspective.

I dont have a problem actually with game play. I have a problem with Balance. And the Balance was Soviets with the potential of Superior infantry forces vs Germans with the Potential of superior armor.

Now we have Slightly inferior Soviet Infantry with good old A Move tanks as per usual. Nothing was given back. Things were just taken away. This isnt an L2P issue so please dont try to spin it into one.

Shocks do not have an appropriate advantage for their cost. They simply dont. I mean you can win fights with Ostruppen before this patch and currently. It doesnt make the unit balanced nor does it make the faction balanced.

And again you avoided the question. Why should a more expensive and less flexible unit that is a hard counter have to spend more muni? They shouldnt. And thats why you havent answered.

I dont have a problem actually with game play. I have a problem with Balance. And the Balance was Soviets with the potential of Superior infantry forces vs Germans with the Potential of superior armor.

Now we have Slightly inferior Soviet Infantry with good old A Move tanks as per usual. Nothing was given back. Things were just taken away. This isnt an L2P issue so please dont try to spin it into one.

Shocks do not have an appropriate advantage for their cost. They simply dont. I mean you can win fights with Ostruppen before this patch and currently. It doesnt make the unit balanced nor does it make the faction balanced.

And again you avoided the question. Why should a more expensive and less flexible unit that is a hard counter have to spend more muni? They shouldnt. And thats why you havent answered.

Actually check out the latest DPS numbers for ostruppen in the other thread, their dps is terrible now.

To your point about shock troops, I can only say I've lost against players, post-patch, who use shock troops well so I can't say why you feel they are underwhelming. Price issue? Maybe, but they are still the best anti-infantry infantry in the game.

Throwing satchels at bunkers feels really satisfying. Losing entire squads to gren spam in well under a second not so much. :/

If losing entire squads to gren spam would make you feel really satisfying... theres something wrong there, lol.

I think we should get back on topic.

Dude i've looked at your posts and you only ever seem to be talking as a German player. Like the whole perspective you argue from, from what i'm picking up, isn't one of trying to balance the game, but trying to argue the German corner within the remit of what the general opinion seems to be. Even you have to admit that?

Not that I blame you - it seems impossible to avoid acting from that perspective if you only play Germans and therefore see things entirely through those eyes, but that surely hammers home what a lot of people have already said - how can you adequately understand the balance of things when you only play one side?

Playing Soviets is fun until someone spamms G43 grenadiers.

But then again, maybe it's my fault. I still try to go for nice balanced armies. While I should be doing lame scout car spams and other abusive tactics.

Dude i've looked at your posts and you only ever seem to be talking as a German player. Like the whole perspective you argue from, from what i'm picking up, isn't one of trying to balance the game, but trying to argue the German corner within the remit of what the general opinion seems to be. Even you have to admit that?

I guess its hard to avoid taking that perspective if you only play Germans, but that surely hammers home what a lot of people have already said - how can you adequately understand the balance of things when you only play one side?

Because I know what a German player's weaknesses are and can speak to them. I can say why I lose and what I lose to. I can say which units I see soviet players using a lot (nerf?) and what units they don't use at all (buff?)

I'm always honest about me playing German in my posts and I put my steam Id on my profile for transparency, something most of the people I argue against choose not to do.

Do I think the patch is perfectly balanced? No, and I've never said as much. I think the changes that need to be made are minor and I tend to only argue against the most hyperbolic, nonsensical, points I see from some of the more aggressive soviet players.

Because I know what a German player's weaknesses are and can speak to them. I can say why I lose and what I lose to. I can say which units I see soviet players using a lot (nerf?) and what units they don't use at all (buff?)

I'm always honest about me playing German in my posts and I put my steam Id on my profile for transparency, something most of the people I argue against choose not to do.

Do I think the patch is perfectly balanced? No, and I've never said as much. I think the changes that need to be made are minor and I tend to only argue against the most hyperbolic, nonsensical, points I see from some of the more aggressive soviet players.

I don't want to sound condescending, but it just doesn't work like that. These weaknesses might be your weaknesses, or you being outplayed. It just doesn't really work only playing one faction, I get its tempting to think you can compensate for any biases but I've never met anyone who that actually works for.

But that is kinda the problem. Your posts are basically reactive, not proactive, about the balance. You said yourself, you are trying here to go against the extreme views of some soviet players, without offering much of your own. That kind of position is a natural consequence of only playing one faction. this kinda opinion style adds to creating the kind of faction 1/faction 2 fanboy mentality that exists on a lot of game forums. its possible to argue against the extreme views of soviet fanboys, while contributing to general balance, rather than (as you would naturally drift towards) a kind of decently argued german fanboyism.

I don't want to sound condescending, but it just doesn't work like that. These weaknesses might be your weaknesses, or you being outplayed. It just doesn't really work only playing one faction, I get its tempting to think you can compensate for any biases but I've never met anyone who that actually works for.

But that is kinda the problem. Your posts are basically reactive, not proactive, about the balance. You said yourself, you are trying here to go against the extreme views of some soviet players, without offering much of your own. That kind of position is a natural consequence of only playing one faction. this kinda opinion style adds to creating the kind of faction 1/faction 2 fanboy mentality that exists on a lot of game forums. its possible to argue against the extreme views of soviet fanboys, while contributing to general balance, rather than (as you would naturally drift towards) a kind of decently argued german fanboyism.

I play one faction because that's how I play, always have from COH1 and further back. If you look at my post history you'll see me endorsing several balance suggestions that are moderate and well thought out. Factions have their weaknesses and strengths and playing only German doesn't stop me from noticing and commenting on them.

As for the weight of my opinion, my stats are out there for everyone to see, but I'm not going to let some of the more extreme views cloud what I consider to be a very successful patch. Flawed, but successful.

I always enjoyed playing with Soviets. The victory is hard to achieve, and it is more challenging playing soviets than OH.
Also, recently I discovered a lot of potential with partisans. Really fun to play.

I really don't like this idea, it has been posted many times before. Giving Soviets T3 and T4 is too much. Also the synergy you talk about is just ram + lots of range/damage. That combo is extremely lethal, too lethal to given to any player who makes it to the late game.

If you want to do this Panther would need to have the same range as the SU85.

I don't agree that it would be too lethal of a combo. That is a lot of fuel required to get T4, a T34 and a SU85, then you have to risk the T34 to ram a single Panther. You seem to underestimate the Panther's capabilities, the thing is like a fucking Rolls Royce. It is fast, lethal vs inf and vehicles, pretty good unit AI, and has blitzkrieg. Now, please don't mistake my intentions here, I'm not a fan of "nerf Germans", I actually think they play fine, I simply see this T3/T4 change as a way to up the Soviet late game without needing to nerf what makes the Germans so enjoyable to play.

I wish I could make a mod to test this idea. I really believe it is something that could help the Soviets an wouldn't upset the balance too much. Anyone have the skills to do so?

Yeah I heard the US Army is looking into Rolls Royce for their AI capabilities.

complain complain... i'll say atleast coh2 has never been more fun than it is now for me.. and i play both factions. Still room for much improvements but damn there is actually hope for coh2 now. The "Only one more game" feeling is back.. first time since beta =)

I don't agree that it would be too lethal of a combo. That is a lot of fuel required to get T4, a T34 and a SU85, then you have to risk the T34 to ram a single Panther. You seem to underestimate the Panther's capabilities, the thing is like a fucking Rolls Royce. It is fast, lethal vs inf and vehicles, pretty good unit AI, and has blitzkrieg. Now, please don't mistake my intentions here, I'm not a fan of "nerf Germans", I actually think they play fine, I simply see this T3/T4 change as a way to up the Soviet late game without needing to nerf what makes the Germans so enjoyable to play.

I wish I could make a mod to test this idea. I really believe it is something that could help the Soviets an wouldn't upset the balance too much. Anyone have the skills to do so?

Which is still less fuel than t3+t4 now, by a lot, and a less than 2 su85's. That's what you give up right now by getting the hard counter to P4, you give up getting to ram anything that gets near the 85 (unless you pick one of two doctrines). You are supposed to have to make tradeoffs as Soviet, I am not arguing that you are interested in nerfing Germans.

Totally agree.
It feels really good winning with soviets now.
For germans though... playing with one hand, and it's enough.

I think Relic have to change germans so they have to revolve around the HMG42 to keep soviets at range, until they have the LMG42 or G43, not needing HMG42 support anymore.

For that, imo, Relic should :
1. Reduce the grens short and middle range DPS a little bit, because if a cons squad manages to close the gap full life, it's not sure it will win the fight 1v1 vs a gren squad, and that's wrong imo.
2. Reduce the molotov range while suppressed maybe with a 0.5 multiplier (same for rifle nades btw), because it's just too easy to oorah + molotov a MG42 (and too easy to rifle nade a maxim). Totally remove the molotov while suppressed (and rifle nade) is overkill imo.
3. And maybe pushing the LMG42 to phase 2 or 3. Not sure about that though, maybe the 2 first points are enough, need to be tested. Or instead of 1 and 2, implement 2 and 3 and see how it goes.

And that's it.

I really like these suggestions, I don't feel like the soviets are that far off balance wise, I just think the germans are much to easy to play. The Ruskies get punished so hard for being aggressive which is kind of what their whole faction design revolves around.

DP upgrades for cons. Munition dump at 100 muni, and allows them to compete against grens mid-late game, once they hit deadly vet 3 with LMG/G43 upgrades. To avoid cons getting it too early and wrecking gren squads before they have vet, put it behind a requirement for T1 or T2 to be built, and possibly a modest global fuel upgrade as well, similarly priced to molotov/at nade upgrades. The alternative is make them a large fuel investment like vCoH bars global upgrade and automatically given to con squads, again behind a T1 or T2 requirement.

Also like the idea of penals getting bazooka upgrades, a non doctrinal AT inf unit for the soviets. The combination of both said upgrades don't really make guards irrelevant, they are great screeners against advancing tanks with button, and have decent anti-inf with DP upgrades and their deadly grenades.

I think both of these upgrades would allow soviet players to branch out to other commanders and not have to be restrained to a select few where late game call ins and elite infantry (well, guards) are arguably more important than ever for soviets.