Is this M3 balanced (see video)?

The first video shows 770 manpower and 5 fuel (two penals, one scout car) beating 480 manpower (two grenadier squads). If you want to count the pioneers you can up the Germans to 680 manpower, but pios here just loiter around and don't contribute to the fight. Furthermore, Soviets had the terrain advantage, one of the grenadier squads was already at around 75% health when the video started and the other grenadier squad took its sweet time to approach the combat meaning most of the fight was one squad at a time, which is of course significantly easier.

The second video shows 690 manpower, 5 fuel and 60 ammo beating 480 manpower. Again the fight was against one squad for a long time.

So M3 is not useless. But is it cost-effective? Do your videos demonstrate anything other than that you can decisively win any engagement when you have a 60% manpower advantage, use good micro, while the enemy units arrive staggered? You might as well show a video of 5 conscripts winning against three Grenadier squads and then claim "this is how you use conscripts".

No. Fuck that. The point is not that Soviets cannot win. It never was. It is that they consistently need to concentrate more manpower in a single place than Ost opponent in order to win. This translates directly to the statement : Soviet units underperform for cost.

See also: the Relic officially recommended counter to Assgrens (two Conscript squads leapfrog-kiting) and Piospam (shock troops in a Scout car).

Again, noone is arguing that M3 has no utility on the battlefield. If anything, this video reinforced my opinion that a garrisoned M3 is the most reliable thing Soviets have to reverse the usual long range equation i.e. force Ost forces to advance from cover.

Yeah, use more manpower to win, thank you, Comrade Obvious
You learn 3 > 2 in elementary school, don't you?

Unless you are the Germans, where your 2 > soviet 2.

You learn 3 > 2 in elementary school, don't you?

I constructed what I think was a decent argument without insulting anyone, so there is no need to resort to this.

So you are flat out saying Soviets need to apply more manpower than Ostheer to win?

I constructed what I think was a decent argument without insulting anyone, so there is no need to resort to this.

So you are flat out saying Soviets need to apply more manpower than Ostheer to win?

No, it wasn't an argument, Comrade Obvious. You typed a wall of text, saying your mum is a woman, or more simple, 3 > 2.

Player A used more resource on an engagement, he won, what's wrong with it?

No, it wasn't an argument, Comrade Obvious. You typed a wall of text, saying your mum is a woman, or more simple, 3 > 2.

Player A used more resource on an engagement, he won, what's wrong with it?

Are you intentionally being obtuse? Absolutely nothing wrong with it. The videos, however, were posted to in an m3 balance thread to demonstrate how to use m3 properly.

It's easy to demonstrate the effectiveness of any unit when you completely outclass your opponent in manpower.

Notice I am not arguing for an m3 buff or nerf, just pointing out the flaw in reasoning.

Let's say I posted a video where 4 Panzergren squads chew up two Conscript squads and say "this is why Panzergrens are OP!" Good laugh, but says exactly NOTHING about panzergrenadier or conscript balance.

The new patch requires a different way of using the clown car now. It'll take some getting used to because you can't rush in and expect to come out of it alive, but I'll bite.

Before the patch when snipers can garrison the car, you would always keep it at range so you don't get fausted. I guess it's the same concept here. Use range and let its machine gun add that extra firepower to tip the engagement in your favor. If gren decides to rush in for a faust, then he's out of cover and puts himself at an extreme disadvantage. The car is also fast enough that you can bounce around from one engagement to another.

At vet 2 they gain +30% accuracy and sight. At vet 3 another +20% accuracy and some mobility enhancements. I think I read somewhere that +50% accuracy directly translates to +50% DPS(?). That's pretty good, especially since german infantry generally has less armor now.

I've only tried this in a few games and it does take a ton of babysitting. I've kited and wiped whole grenadier squads who got overly confident and decided to rush in. That said, I do think the price should be a little less since the unit is obsolete once german gets 222 / paks / shreks, which is very common nowadays.

Looked after well it can be a real pain in the germans side, which often leads them trying to set up flanks to corner it. So he is dancing to your tune instead of the other way around.

It might be nice with penals, but I cant bring myself to ditch the engies, cos its a good way to use the initial ones and having repairs always on hand is what makes it viable.

Its also great for nipping to outlying flags, then engie jumps out and mines while he caps. Can cause havok with this.

No, it wasn't an argument, Comrade Obvious. You typed a wall of text, saying your mum is a woman, or more simple, 3 > 2.

Player A used more resource on an engagement, he won, what's wrong with it?

I´m gonna put it simple. Do you think it is cost effective in comparison to other units on this patch ?

The new patch requires a different way of using the clown car now. It'll take some getting used to because you can't rush in and expect to come out of it alive, but I'll bite.

You never could "rush in with and expect to come out of it alive".

At vet 2

Everything past vet1 on SCs is meaningless, because the weapons on the battlefield far surpass its meager damage output once it hits vet2, plus it won't survive contact.

I've kited and wiped whole grenadier squads who got overly confident

Everyone can do that. But what if the the grenadiers are not send in unsupported and without micro?
It's almost funny how many gren squads I have wiped because the german player got overconfident, I give you that.

The new patch requires a different way of using the clown car now. It'll take some getting used to because you can't rush in and expect to come out of it alive, but I'll bite.

Before the patch when snipers can garrison the car, you would always keep it at range so you don't get fausted. I guess it's the same concept here. Use range and let its machine gun add that extra firepower to tip the engagement in your favor. If gren decides to rush in for a faust, then he's out of cover and puts himself at an extreme disadvantage. The car is also fast enough that you can bounce around from one engagement to another.

At vet 2 they gain +30% accuracy and sight. At vet 3 another +20% accuracy and some mobility enhancements. I think I read somewhere that +50% accuracy directly translates to +50% DPS(?). That's pretty good, especially since german infantry generally has less armor now.

I've only tried this in a few games and it does take a ton of babysitting. I've kited and wiped whole grenadier squads who got overly confident and decided to rush in. That said, I do think the price should be a little less since the unit is obsolete once german gets 222 / paks / shreks, which is very common nowadays.

Ask yourslef. Is it worth the cost of a Conscript Squad? That MG? I dont think so. Your better off DPS and utility with another Script. 222 NOW YOUR TALKING!

Ask yourslef. Is it worth the cost of a Conscript Squad? That MG? I dont think so. Your better off DPS and utility with another Script. 222 NOW YOUR TALKING!

Agreed,which is why I said it needs a cost decrease. For it to be worth it, you gotta get it early because German T2 counters it. But then that means you lose capping power. Unless your opponent spams assgrens and pioneers, you're better off getting something else. A cheaper cost will also make it faster to vet up.

Ok i get it now, I was thinking wow the clown car was way too weak or the pios were way too strong now, but now i see the scout car is coh2's version of coh1's jeep. I and many have been used toit being an early kangeroo light. I love what relic is doing to bring back the early game.

Yep was Kangaroo lite now its a Jeep. The 222 was a Jeep and is now a T70 light o.O

Sigh.

M3 is the most mobile unit in the game and you should really choose how to use it, just because it is that mobile, you need to find your opponent weakness (engagement that less manpower wise of his side, or find any wandering sheep out of the flock), rush into it and stab him one by one. M3 is a weak, but speedy poisonous knife. You need to use them like Zerglings. Of course you use them like Protoss zealots and you are fucked.

That is the reason of the clips I have shown of "That's how you should use M3".


Just as Imperial Dane said, if you want something that can stand a hell lot of manpower-wise units, kick some ass and getaway safely, look for a tank, not M3.

M3 = Zergling

222 = Blink stalker

M3 = Zergling

222 = Blink stalker

Not really, or maybe, just dump a guards into a vetted M3, overdrive and flank it, 4 seconds 222 is gone.

And how much does your suggestion cost? I would certainly hope it would end well.

And how much does your suggestion cost? I would certainly hope it would end well.

Just make it 200/5 and it is fine. Making it too cheap and you will see a clown car army dominating German T1 once again.
(Actually it is already happening )

Instead of a 50/50 situation i prefer to screen with something else, and have the M3 guards peak some shots. Their burst damage is higher.

What i´m trying to say is that the effort you need to put into the 222 isn´t comparable to the M3.
The resources/effort you need to destinate into each one to achieve comparable amount of damage or utility isn´t equal.
If you go with an M3 you have all the tools to deal with it either on T1 (faust or small arm fire) or T2.
If you go with a 221/222 you either get lucky with some mines or you force your opponent into teching AT nades, getting a doctrine with Guards or making a Zis Gun. Any situation is a win-win.

If you ask me, i would go for (not all) some of this changes:

-MP reduction/fuel increase. Some balance between 150-200MP/5-10
-Reduce size/increase armor. Just a small buff against small arm fires.
-Give it some upgrades (i want my ambulance M3, a man can dream).

i want my ambulance M3, a man can dream.

Mother of God. This is brilliant. +1

-1,000,000 if it's doctrinal only.