Please get rid of. On both sides.
For gameplay and realism purposes.
Thanks.
Sniper Clown Car
16 Mar 2014, 21:40 PM
#1
Posts: 409
16 Mar 2014, 23:29 PM
#2
Posts: 879
It's funny, after the car nerf everyone stopped doing them when it was all anyone did first 3 months of the game.
Then people learned what the faust range actually is and how easy it actually is to micro the cars.
It's actually also a micro-balance issue - the Soviet player using 2 cars probably only has 2-3 other units out. That means they can concentrate exclusively on the car micro, keeping the other units to screen. Meanwhile the Ostheer players are frantically trying to maneuver 4-5 T1 units to combat it. Ironically, if snipers were actually cheaper, I think you'd have more of a chance against them because it would increase the micro requirement on the Soviet player as he would have more units to manage.
So that's one out of the box idea on how to balance them. Lower health, but cheaper. Meaning sniper spam will still be powerful, but harder to micro.
Then people learned what the faust range actually is and how easy it actually is to micro the cars.
It's actually also a micro-balance issue - the Soviet player using 2 cars probably only has 2-3 other units out. That means they can concentrate exclusively on the car micro, keeping the other units to screen. Meanwhile the Ostheer players are frantically trying to maneuver 4-5 T1 units to combat it. Ironically, if snipers were actually cheaper, I think you'd have more of a chance against them because it would increase the micro requirement on the Soviet player as he would have more units to manage.
So that's one out of the box idea on how to balance them. Lower health, but cheaper. Meaning sniper spam will still be powerful, but harder to micro.
17 Mar 2014, 01:08 AM
#3
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
But if we go for the extreme, someone with pure better micro and APM will just be unbeatable, despite the tactics or strategy you might pull.
In order to make T1 something besides snipers, light vehicles and Penals should be more reliable.
In order to make T1 something besides snipers, light vehicles and Penals should be more reliable.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
17 Mar 2014, 01:13 AM
#4
Posts: 1637
But if we go for the extreme, someone with pure better micro and APM will just be unbeatable, despite the tactics or strategy you might pull.
In order to make T1 something besides snipers, light vehicles and Penals should be more reliable.
Penals should be cheaper to not totally destory balance. With no buffs I would say 280-320 MP. Then like you said T1 would have more to offer then just sniper spam.
Funny fact Irregualars sometimes come with 4 SVT rifles, have the Guards Squad Grenade, AT nade and cost 250.....280 for two more rifles and no guard nade or AT nade sounds good to me....
The PTRS's are fine as they are. Whenever i'm up against Guard Infantry, I always have to be careful with my vehicles or the Guards will completely destroy them. Good range, good damage and fairly cheap; if anything, the PTRS should nerfed since it's ridiculously good for the price. Even in the hands of Conscripts, the PTRS's are extremely potent.
17 Mar 2014, 02:28 AM
#5
Posts: 2779
If 222 isn't made of tissue paper or didn't come into the party too late, no one cares about sniper car.
What we now lack, is a schimmwagen or bike, the old bane of Brit slow but strong clown car.
What we now lack, is a schimmwagen or bike, the old bane of Brit slow but strong clown car.
17 Mar 2014, 03:25 AM
#6
Posts: 879
But if we go for the extreme, someone with pure better micro and APM will just be unbeatable, despite the tactics or strategy you might pull.
In order to make T1 something besides snipers, light vehicles and Penals should be more reliable.
That would be fine. That's what separates the top 1% from the rest of the world.
Ideally, in a game that scales with regard to skill, you should have some units that are really difficult to use properly, but when microed well, are very, very powerful. It's not quite on the same scale but the M10 and T70 are examples. That's how you raise the game's skill cap. Ketten pushing in COH is another example, doing it is actually not that easy, keeping it alive and judging when to quit is another level of skill. But that wasn't an intentional design decision as far as I know...What would be really nice is to have some units that have that kind of skill progression, the better you are the more powerful they are, by design...
17 Mar 2014, 05:06 AM
#7
Posts: 219
That would be fine. That's what separates the top 1% from the rest of the world.
What? Abuse?
Do you understand what will happen when your opponent has 4 snipers out? I am totally against making them cheaper and having less health or armour. That would just mean that the opponent will use them even smarter and always keeping them in the back.
IMHO, they should just limit snipers to 1 per faction until he dies. Same with the heavy call ins... but that's just me.
17 Mar 2014, 08:39 AM
#8
Posts: 807
Why not totaly remove the ability of snipers to shoot from a vehicle? No matter if we are talking about germans or soviets. That won't touch the balance, it will just remove sniper-in-clown car tactic.
Problem is that until german player has something usefull to chase the clown car (most comonly the upguned 222) the mp bleed he suffer is to high, or, if he kite his squads, he will have to lose serious ground. I saw experienced players using this combo with guards. So no big chance for the 222 eather. Usualy, in this tactic case, if aplied correctly, is GG for german player in 10 minutes.
Problem is that until german player has something usefull to chase the clown car (most comonly the upguned 222) the mp bleed he suffer is to high, or, if he kite his squads, he will have to lose serious ground. I saw experienced players using this combo with guards. So no big chance for the 222 eather. Usualy, in this tactic case, if aplied correctly, is GG for german player in 10 minutes.
17 Mar 2014, 11:27 AM
#9
2 
Posts: 1108
Why not totaly remove the ability of snipers to shoot from a vehicle? No matter if we are talking about germans or soviets. That won't touch the balance, it will just remove sniper-in-clown car tactic.
Problem is that until german player has something usefull to chase the clown car (most comonly the upguned 222) the mp bleed he suffer is to high, or, if he kite his squads, he will have to lose serious ground. I saw experienced players using this combo with guards. So no big chance for the 222 eather. Usualy, in this tactic case, if aplied correctly, is GG for german player in 10 minutes.
move the 222 to t1 and give them a little price increase. Problem solved
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17 Mar 2014, 11:55 AM
#10
Posts: 680
I am totally against making them cheaper and having less health or armour. That would just mean that the opponent will use them even smarter and always keeping them in the back.
IMHO, they should just limit snipers to 1 per faction until he dies. Same with the heavy call ins... but that's just me.
+1
Wouldnt it be better to lower the price of the sniper and also lower his ability to kill units? If you loose your sniper (or even worse two or three) at them moment your in deepshit. If you dont loose them at the moment the german player has a serious uphill battle. My suggestion - 1 Lower the cost. 2 Sniper can only fire when in cower(clown car in this case doesnt count as cower). 3 If 1 and 2 still makes the sniper to deadly, lower the rate of fire.
17 Mar 2014, 12:43 PM
#11
Posts: 1701
Solutions?
1- Make them 1 per faction.
2- Move 221 to T1
3- Remove sniper in car
4- Add bikes
5- Remove 2 man squad
1- Make them 1 per faction.
2- Move 221 to T1
3- Remove sniper in car
4- Add bikes
5- Remove 2 man squad
Blaue Division - The best corp
BPX - Black Phoenix, Clan leader.
BPX - Black Phoenix, Clan leader.
17 Mar 2014, 13:24 PM
#12
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
...
You stated just to make snipers cheaper but with lower health. That means 1 model or 2 models with even more less health? If that is the only nerf you are going to have, it´s going to be more problematic.
I was referring to those on the 1%. With same amount of micro or APM from both parties, you wont be able to get the snipers.
"It's funny, after the car nerf everyone stopped doing them when it was all anyone did first 3 months of the game."
You forgot that going T1 was a huge invesment which lead to losing map control unless you dealt damage. Nowadays we have more resources for being able to pull that off.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
17 Mar 2014, 14:52 PM
#13
Posts: 807
move the 222 to t1 and give them a little price increase. Problem solved
Ok, and soviet player will use a combo of clown-car sniper + guards. Problem still existing.
17 Mar 2014, 15:15 PM
#14
4 
Posts: 312
Funny, whenever I face sniper scout cars (or any scout car strategy), I just build 1-2 222s (with at least 1 upgun). If he invests so heavily into snipers as well, it usually becomes an easy win. Sure they are rather fragile, but with proper micro they stand up well enough to hold the map.
17 Mar 2014, 15:20 PM
#15
Posts: 1130
Ok, and soviet player will use a combo of clown-car sniper + guards. Problem still existing.
He tries that in the first minutes and he would lose all map control as the guards are simply not their.
horrida flamma bella
17 Mar 2014, 16:04 PM
#16
Posts: 307
+1
Wouldnt it be better to lower the price of the sniper and also lower his ability to kill units? If you loose your sniper (or even worse two or three) at them moment your in deepshit. If you dont loose them at the moment the german player has a serious uphill battle. My suggestion - 1 Lower the cost. 2 Sniper can only fire when in cower(clown car in this case doesnt count as cower). 3 If 1 and 2 still makes the sniper to deadly, lower the rate of fire.
COWER? What's that? Is that where all the cowards are covering???
Vae Victis!
17 Mar 2014, 16:06 PM
#17
Posts: 307
Solutions?
1- Make them 1 per faction.
2- Move 221 to T1
3- Remove sniper in car
4- Add bikes
5- Remove 2 man squad
This sounds like a very very cruel nerf. Unfair and unbalanced.
Vae Victis!
17 Mar 2014, 16:22 PM
#18
Posts: 2561
move the 222 to t1 and give them a little price increase. Problem solved
That fixes the sniper problem, but adds a 221 problem. Soviets don't have the tools to fight vehicles that early on. Any vehicle that resistant to small arms can't come out in the first minutes of the game.
You would need to lower it to the level of the m3 and give soviets access to free AT nades like the germans.
17 Mar 2014, 16:57 PM
#19
Posts: 879
I am totally in favor of a higher cost scout car in T1, but they would have to make it quite pricey - a sniper counter that early would be fair in the 260 - 280 MP range I think.
Plus I really want a scouting/blocking unit like the Wehrmahkt bike. I really want to be able to screw with conscript pathing and block them, instead of just having to run away every time I get flanked.
Plus I really want a scouting/blocking unit like the Wehrmahkt bike. I really want to be able to screw with conscript pathing and block them, instead of just having to run away every time I get flanked.
17 Mar 2014, 20:28 PM
#20
Posts: 1637
I am totally in favor of a higher cost scout car in T1, but they would have to make it quite pricey - a sniper counter that early would be fair in the 260 - 280 MP range I think.
Plus I really want a scouting/blocking unit like the Wehrmahkt bike. I really want to be able to screw with conscript pathing and block them, instead of just having to run away every time I get flanked.
This. For the Soviet Side as well. I hate how fragile light vehicles are in General to small arms while the infantry have so many HPs. I would like light vehicles to be a worthy investment all game not just early game.
The PTRS's are fine as they are. Whenever i'm up against Guard Infantry, I always have to be careful with my vehicles or the Guards will completely destroy them. Good range, good damage and fairly cheap; if anything, the PTRS should nerfed since it's ridiculously good for the price. Even in the hands of Conscripts, the PTRS's are extremely potent.
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