German S-Mines Broken

Hi guys I'm ArchonHawk and I've been driven to the forums by being cheesed one too many times. I was fine with the Tiger Ace, hell I was fine with the G-43's instantly ruining my snipers. What I cannot stand is this new minefield blobbing German playstyle.

Pretty much the German starts a minefield, cancels after building one and continues this till a cutoff or point is covered. The mines build incredibly fast as well. This is a gigantic problem on maps such as Semoskiy and also Road To Karkov. If you lose the initiative once as the Soviet. Mines go up and you can't push through until you get rid of them.

Possible solutions, well look there aren't many;
1-Just flank them. Well yes I would love to but there is an MG in one lane a blob in the middle and mines on the right, I can't do that.

2-Destroy them. Hard as hell, for some reason I cannot fathom Engie flamers will not clear mines as the German flamers will. Ok go minesweepers, sure but that means an additional Engie squad, and the upgrade, and even after that they will take double damage when clearing so one Gren squad will force them off. I mean you could try with AT guns or Mortars but it's not efficient and you lose the initiative.

3-Perhaps the only way is to go Tier 1 and get a scout car, sure it will still take damage but you can repair it. What I hate is this forces you into Tier 1 and that sucks a lot of the time. So if you see double Pio, usually the strat then you have to go Tier 1.

Possible Fixes- 1 Make sure you have to build the entire field not just the one mine spam. 2 Increase the ridiculously short build time. Or 3 please let flamers clear the mines.

Opinions welcome ofc.

-ArchonHawk

The build time decrease they got is completely ridiculous, the old one was too long for their performance back then, but I don't understand how anyone could think a 75% reduction in build time would be a good idea. Especially when they buffed the mines in general at the same time...

Going T1 pretty much completely fucks you over with the new spam-mines, the scout car can't clear them because it takes damage from pretty much every single smine explosion thanks to the paper thin armor value on it. Either you conspam and control sminefields by not giving opponents pioneers time to put them up anywhere really annoying, or you go T2 and try to clean them out with mortars and atguns until you can get proper vehicles. Engineer minesweepers really aren't that useful at clearing them, it takes several times longer to clear them sweeping than it takes to build them

Yeah good points.

The 75% build reduction actually translates to significantly less in-game. The majority of the construction time is spent on the engineers running from one corner of the s-mine field to the next, making the construction time less significant.

The sweeping time on a s-mine is directly proportional to it's build time. It takes about 1 second to sweep the mine.. I don't know much much faster you expect it to be? The enemy spent 60 munitions building the mines - surely you can spend 30 munitions to clear them.

If it makes you feel any better, the German scout car can't clear the Soviet mines either.

s-mines are now on-par with Soviet mines and this change was one of the rare moments Relic actually proactively improved a useless ability.

Edit: I'm not sure why you said mortars aren't efficient at cleaning the s-mine field. They trigger from any damage source, regardless of the damage. This means a single splash of a mortar is enough to clear half the field.

The 75% build reduction actually translates to significantly less in-game. The majority of the construction time is spent on the engineers running from one corner of the s-mine field to the next, making the construction time less significant.

The sweeping time on a s-mine is directly proportional to it's build time. It takes about 1 second to sweep the mine.. I don't know much much faster you expect it to be? The enemy spent 60 munitions building the mines - surely you can spend 30 munitions to clear them.

If it makes you feel any better, the German scout car can't clear the Soviet mines either.

s-mines are now on-par with Soviet mines and this change was one of the rare moments Relic actually proactively improved a useless ability.

No German actually builds the whole field, they build one mine, cancel, and then build another right next to it. You don't have to build all four, there is no Pio travel time. Minesweepers are not really viable if the German is any good, as I said Engies take double damage when clearing.

Build time is pretty much the only issue I've got with it.

How pios can spray mines around, while CEs build just one in the same time(and I'm talking about the def doctrine AI mine) is ridiculous, rest is fine.

The 75% build reduction actually translates to significantly less in-game. The majority of the construction time is spent on the engineers running from one corner of the s-mine field to the next, making the construction time less significant.

You do realize they halved the distance between the patches as well? The actual reduction in an entire field build time is pretty close to 75% even after accounting for movement.

You are not penalized in any way for only building one patch at a time except through being forced to manually give a command to interrupt building, so you can avoid even that little moving if you want.

The sweeping time on a s-mine is directly proportional to it's build time. It takes about 1 second to sweep the mine.. I don't know much much faster you expect it to be? The enemy spent 60 munitions building the mines - surely you can spend 30 munitions to clear them.

It's not, please take a look at how badly pioneers/engineers behave when you're trying to get them to sweep sometimes. They will often derp for several seconds before clearing a single mine, and with smines there are around 20 of those patches for every 60 munis spent so you're often looking at a >1 minute clear time for a field that takes <15 seconds to build. I've complained several times about the sweeping speed issues with soviet mines when playing as germans (in that a single squad lays them faster than the pioneers will sweep them at), and smines are several times worse than that.

And honestly it's not even about how long it ties up your engineers compared to how fast it builds. The real issue is that if a german pioneer squad gets to a cutoff point, they can make it completely impossible to recap without a vehicle or minesweeper in a couple of seconds.

s-mines are now on-par with Soviet mines and this change was one of the rare moments Relic actually proactively improved a useless ability.

I'd never make a soviet mine for anti-infantry purposes again if they had the current smines. The current smines also hugely penalize any strat that isn't conspam and allow for some pretty silly abuse with the extremely limited retreat paths on most maps.

Edit: I'm not sure why you said mortars aren't efficient at cleaning the s-mine field. They trigger from any damage source, regardless of the damage. This means a single splash of a mortar is enough to clear half the field.

They're honestly not. Not only is the accuracy of ground target all over the place, Most hits will only explode one or two mines at best. I'd always rather conspam than get mortars against anyone I know is going to abuse the new mines.

Cruzz hit the nail on the head.

The other issue I have is that they plant SO fast you can plant them mid combat. During an engagement, you just plant the S mines in a cutoff. But due to the long sweep time you can't clear them during an engagement.

It's not only S mines on their own right, S mines combined with MG42's, with bunkers, with MG42 Grens. So much campy power that due to map design that have so many choke points such as Semois, Kharkov and Kholodny you can often lock down the entire map with a single push. MG one side, Mines on the other then MG Gren blob in the middle. All of a sudden the Soviet can not push out anywhere.

Best way to clear them is early vehicles. LOL thats just wrong on many levels.

Like Archon said good luck getting an Engi near it as it is usually accompanied by an HMG.

Good luck clearing the HMG since your scour car gets blown up trying to get in there.

Once you get real vehicles though its kind of a waste of muni.

Just sucks early game.

I'm not sure how he hit the nail on the head. Other than the point where the player explicitly only builds one patch (and thus the time reduction being significant), his other arguments were "The mine is working how it is supposed to work"

The Pioneer takes extra damage while clearing a Soviet mine. I'm not sure why it's argument against s-mines.

Soviet mines block choke points and require a sweeper as well. I'm not sure how this is an argument against s-mines.

This thread should just be "Mines are broken because they require minesweepers to clear, sweeping takes too long, and the engineer/pioneer take extra damage while clearing"

Mines are deactivated when they are detected. Nothing is preventing you from flanking an MG if you have an engineer around. The detection works even if they are pinned.

I'm not sure how he hit the nail on the head. Other than the point where the player explicitly only builds one patch (and thus the time reduction being significant), his other arguments were "The mine is working how it is supposed to work"

The Pioneer takes extra damage while clearing a Soviet mine. I'm not sure why it's argument against s-mines.

Soviet mines block choke points and require a sweeper as well. I'm not sure how this is an argument against s-mines.

This thread should just be "Mines are broken because they require minesweepers to clear, sweeping takes too long, and the engineer/pioneer take extra damage while clearing"

Mines are deactivated when they are detected. Nothing is preventing you from flanking an MG if you have an engineer around. The detection works even if they are pinned.

You can't compare S Mines to Soviet mines, they are completely different and have completely different uses. S Mines are for area of denial, you don't just clear 1 mine you clear heaps. Soviet Mines are put there just hoping a vehicle will drive over them. Besides German's don't have to even clear them if they don't have the time. A single Rifle Grenade or Flamer burst will destroy the mine.

Edit: Though the point about the reveal into Con flank is good, probably a good way to try and push out.

For God Sake,

READ THE FUCKING SIGN


Seriously WTF is wrong with these people, S-mines stop your advance so it is broken?

TM-38 instant squad wipe vet 3 screck PG and it is fine?

Flames do not destroy mines. Rifle Grenades only clear mines you can see. Unlike s-mines, they don't have little "Mines are here!" signs.

If s-mines are area denial to you, then you are not building a single patch. You are probably building multiple patches to cover an area.

Soviet mines aren't just put there hoping for vehicles - they are used equally against infantry.

Spot on, Razh.

Flames do not destroy mines. Rifle Grenades only clear mines you can see. Unlike s-mines, they don't have little "Mines are here!" signs.

If s-mines are area denial to you, then you are not building a single patch. You are probably building multiple patches to cover an area.

Soviet mines aren't just put there hoping for vehicles - they are used equally against infantry.

I'm 90% sure flamers on Pio's clear regular Soviet Mines, as for the infantry point yes you are right I was just trying to highlight the differences in the mines.
There isn't an issue on the majority of the maps but on maps like Semoskiy Summer where if you are North there are only 2-3 small chokepoint ways out of your base the combination of the grouped S mines and MG-42's, Bunkers and even MG-42 Grens are incredibly potent.

You don't have to sweep the mines to render them useless. Just have an engineer on the same screen as the mines and conduct your assault as normal, then cleanup afterwards.

I'd give it some more time before declaring OP/UP one way or another. A huge part of it I suspect (for myself included) is that you have months of time playing as Soviets without ever needing to consider buying a minesweeper. Now you do.

EDIT: It's also quite a gamble to plant mines as the Ostheer player. It just means that many fewer LMG / G43 / FHT / shrek / teller / pintle MGs that can be purchased.

You don't have to sweep the mines to render them useless. Just have an engineer on the same screen as the mines and conduct your assault as normal, then cleanup afterwards.

I'd give it some more time before declaring OP/UP one way or another. A huge part of it I suspect (for myself included) is that you have months of time playing as Soviets without ever needing to consider buying a minesweeper. Now you do.

Yeah I defiantly think this is a valid way of dealing with the mines. Provided you position Engies so they don't get killed and move out successfully before the German has time to camp you in.

Only issue then is making sure the mines are still deactivated for your retreat path.

Comparing the German S-Mines to the Soviet mines is silly because there's so many other factors such as the lockdown and area of the MG42 HMG and the MG42 Grenadier upgrade.

I'm 90% sure flamers on Pio's clear regular Soviet Mines, as for the infantry point yes you are right I was just trying to highlight the differences in the mines.
There isn't an issue on the majority of the maps but on maps like Semoskiy Summer where if you are North there are only 2-3 small chokepoint ways out of your base the combination of the grouped S mines and MG-42's, Bunkers and even MG-42 Grens are incredibly potent.

You have four options:

(1) See signs, still run over them and see fireworks
(2) See signs, get a sweeper and run over them like they don't exist
(3) See signs, mortar it
(4) Ignore signs, whine now

OMG, if they really remove the sign like what mines really should, will you whine harder?