Penal Battalions THE THREAD!

penals needs some anti tank upgrades imo

And you're pointing here exactly the reason why they are weak(one of them), they are being outperformed by cheaper squad(with an upgrade) that doesn't force you on specific tiering.

I'd love to see penals having improved mid-long range accuracy or cost decreased, because they are definitely not a cost effective unit.

outperformed? g43 grens do 10 dps compared to penals 9 at long range. at close range g43 grens do 20 dps compared to penals 34...

one requires upgrades and waiting for cps, the other can be your first unit.

i dont think i pointed out any reason why theyre weak. people are just stuck on calling them "suicide squads" so they buy flamethrowers and charge into close range.

There is definitely something wrong with the unit when its being used out of boredom instead of being a valid choice.

well thats purely opinion. the main reason theyre not seen is it takes away from the soviets map control. why tech and build penals when all you need is t0?

outperformed? g43 grens do 10 dps compared to penals 9 at long range. at close range g43 grens do 20 dps compared to penals 34...

one requires upgrades and waiting for cps, the other can be your first unit.

i dont think i pointed out any reason why theyre weak. people are just stuck on calling them "suicide squads" so they buy flamethrowers and charge into close range.



well thats purely opinion. the main reason theyre not seen is it takes away from the soviets map control. why tech and build penals when all you need is t0?

Grens also have the G43 in the last two units with 1.5 armor.

Penals have the SVT40 in 6 models with 1 armor

This is why G43s will ALWAYS trump Penals easily.

Same problem with the LMG. (Though this doesnt trump them as hard as G43s)

Which is why I think making half SVTs and half Mosins would be ideal. Keeping the DPS the same for the squad. This why their DPS doesnt taper off as fast.

Make em specialist at dealing with static enemy positions, I say. make them a distracting force that allows for multi-directional flanks with ordinary cons. Something like a suicidal charge, that can only target a deployed enemy weapon team or bunker and acts in a similar way to ram whereby the squad Uh-Rah's towards the position. As they begin the charge so the timer on the satchel charge should start and when it goes off the squad should be killed along with the enemy weapon team.

so basically this

so basically this

Problem with that is you lose a 360 MP squad for a 240 MP MG? Noooooooo

Throwing away partisans is hard enough. And currently if Penals flank weapon team they are dead anyway.

The only time I've used penals is when I already built my T1 with the intention of sniper + clown car, but encountered assault grens/ostruppen and back tracked to penals. I honestly don't see any other time they are worth using. You sacrifice map control and time investing in these if its a conventional 2-3 gren BO, that 3-4 cons could have handled anyway.

Reduce MP, and/or provide upgradable AT capabilities like PTRS, or special ability AT nade (conscript AT nades) unlocked at vet 1. I would definitely consider the unit a lot more if these changes happened.

The only time I've used penals is when I already built my T1 with the intention of sniper + clown car, but encountered assault grens/ostruppen and back tracked to penals. I honestly don't see any other time they are worth using. You sacrifice map control and time investing in these if its a conventional 2-3 gren BO, that 3-4 cons could have handled anyway.

Reduce MP, and/or provide upgradable AT capabilities like PTRS, or special ability AT nade unlocked at vet 1. I would definitely consider the unit a lot more if these changes happened.

Maybe a single PTRS rifle? Or AT nade at Vet 1 IF its been researched. Thats not a bad idea but it would make Osts light vehicle problem even worse.

I still dont think however at 360 MP even an AT nade would make them feasible. Better but not worth 360 MP.

Maybe a single PTRS rifle? Or AT nade at Vet 1 IF its been researched. Thats not a bad idea but it would make Osts light vehicle problem even worse.

I still dont think however at 360 MP even an AT nade would make them feasible. Better but not worth 360 MP.

Yes, MP reduction to 320 like others have stated, and AT nade research upgrade unlocked for the unit only once the unit hits vet 1 I think suddenly makes it a much more attractive option. Forget the PTRS upgrade actually, if a player goes down the penal/cons route Ostheer light vehicles will have to play like they normally play, just don't get too close to cons/penals to avoid AT nades.

Yes, MP reduction to 320 like others have stated, and AT nade research upgrade unlocked for the unit only once the unit hits vet 1 I think suddenly makes it a much more attractive option. Forget the PTRS upgrade actually, if a player goes down the penal/cons route Ostheer light vehicles will have to play like they normally play, just don't get too close to cons/penals to avoid AT nades.

That still makes me struggle at their role. At that point they are literally just like a more manpower expensive G43 Gren squad that loses DPS faster with satchel and Flamer thrower...

Would be wonky but they would be better...

outperformed? g43 grens do 10 dps compared to penals 9 at long range. at close range g43 grens do 20 dps compared to penals 34...

G43 have more range then all other rifles, so max range for SVT is not really a max range for G43, so the difference is bigger then 1 dps at range.

And again, I'm not saying penals are horribly bad, they are just not cost effective, if they were, they would be used.

Someone on Steam had an interesting idea. Lower the cost and add a 10% xp bulletin.

That way they can get to Vet 2 faster where they actually perform quite well.

Maybe replace oorah at vet 2 with AT grenade?

Perhaps the RPG-6 instead of the RPG 40 or 43. And it just does some damage instead of a crit?

Maybe replace oorah at vet 2 with AT grenade?

Perhaps the RPG-6 instead of the RPG 40 or 43. And it just does some damage instead of a crit?

Next to lowering their cost I think give them AT ability is the second most popular.

I would prefer them to be the inverse of Pgrens myself as a role.

Really good AI then a 120 Muni upgrade that makes them beyond Pgren level DPS. I think that would be a good change.

That way they become beast mode, eat muni (a gripe Soviets always have tons of muni for mines) and make sense in an AI building.

Keeping to the Soviet trend of AI while Ost still gets to have the best AT.

...
@ alcoholic, what if your opponent gets a flamer ht?

most of the time thats not the end of the world.
it gives the germans 2-3 minutes of dominance just like i dominated 2-3 minutes before with the penals in the m3.

after thet a t70 or a t34 rolls out wich turns the tide again.

then the p4 arrives and the osther again has the upper hand.

at the end of the day it all comes down who is the better player.
i dont think that penals are overperforming or as good as cons with ppsh, shocktroops or guards.

but: if you choose a doctrin that dont has any of these. they are a very viable choice the way they are now.

most times i use the doctrine with radio intercep +crew repais+ 2* t34 85+ is2 + stafe.
all of them very powerfull abilities but the doctrine lacks the fancy infantrie stuff.

2 penal units give me what i need in terms of infantry fighting power in this case.
looking at the game stats after the game my penals most of the time have dealt more than 1.5 times the infantry damage that my conscrips have inflicted. and that is while i had mostly a 3/2 ratio of conscrips running around. that would be 2.25 more damage for less then 1.5 times the price because of merge.

most of the time thats not the end of the world.
it gives the germans 2-3 minutes of dominance just like i dominated 2-3 minutes before with the penals in the m3.

after thet a t70 or a t34 rolls out wich turns the tide again.

then the p4 arrives and the osther again has the upper hand.

at the end of the day it all comes down who is the better player.
i dont think that penals are overperforming or as good as cons with ppsh, shocktroops or guards.

but: if you choose a doctrin that dont has any of these. they are a very viable choice the way they are now.

most times i use the doctrine with radio intercep +crew repais+ 2* t34 85+ is2 + stafe.
all of them very powerfull abilities but the doctrine lacks the fancy infantrie stuff.

2 penal units give me what i need in terms of infantry fighting power in this case.
looking at the game stats after the game my penals most of the time have dealt more than 1.5 times the infantry damage that my conscrips have inflicted. and that is while i had mostly a 3/2 ratio of conscrips running around. that would be 2.25 more damage for less then 1.5 times the price because of merge.

Merge makes them just reinforce for about the same cost as Grens.

I take issue to that. G43 Grens will mow them down and do it for less upkeep (this is important in my eyes and left out of most discussions) and less initial cost while about the same reinforcement cost on a faction that really doesn't bleed that much manpower.

I find this particularly hypocritical when it comes to balance. PPSH scripts are balanced or nerfed based on whether they can beat AI pgrens (360MP) yet its perfectly OK that G43 Grens beat 360 MP Penals (not to mention what Pgrens can do to them)

I use Penals successfully all the time. But this is DESPITE their weakness and costing far too much for their performance.

I would hardly think they are fine at 360 MP. If they are going to perform worse than 240 MP Generalist unit with a 60MP upgrade that all the while has faust.

When you put them in this perspective you see how terribly over priced they are in their current state.

The only advantage they have is they are WAY better than scripts...thats like balancing Grens at a UP level because they are better than Ostruppen.

I'd like them to have unique AT as well, but that is not going to happen I believe, since T1 seems to be designed as an anti-infantry tier. Which I like too, call me skizo.

But it also seems to me that people don't accept their strengths; they are cheap to reinforce and get the best offensive veterancy bonus in the game, along with a fuel-free building-counter. The difference between T2 with molotovs and T1 with flamers and satchels is 35 fuel in the initial fuel-race, which is quite a bit.

If those strengths can be made to work in-game, I dunno.

I'd like them to have unique AT as well, but that is not going to happen I believe, since T1 seems to be designed as an anti-infantry tier. Which I like too, call me skizo.

An unlockable upgrade could be added upon reaching T3/T4 which would enable penals to purchase a single shrek or ptrs. In other words, T1 could remain the dedicated anti-infantry building it was designed to be until T3 or T4 hits, at which point, penals become a bit more versatile.

I'd like them to have unique AT as well, but that is not going to happen I believe, since T1 seems to be designed as an anti-infantry tier. Which I like too, call me skizo.

But it also seems to me that people don't accept their strengths; they are cheap to reinforce and get the best offensive veterancy bonus in the game, along with a fuel-free building-counter. The difference between T2 with molotovs and T1 with flamers and satchels is 35 fuel in the initial fuel-race, which is quite a bit.

If those strengths can be made to work in-game, I dunno.

Their Strengths are early DPS at the cost of Capping power. Vet 2 does seem them significantly better. However as I have brought up the DPS drop off due to 1 armor model loss is not insignificant.

Also model per model even with Merge they are at MOST equal to reinforce to Grens. But again they have a high upkeep and pop cap that works against that and makes G43 grens more economical and a better choice for an infinite number of reasons.

They perform well. They dont perform well for manpower cost or opportunity cost.

But this puts Agrens in a weird spot too. They cant make Penals equal or cheaper than Agrens....you dont want their DPS to be above Pgrens (then Germans will have no unit thats king in the infantry realm)

But as an AI infantry they should at least perform better than a Generalist Infantry with a 60 muni upgrade.

Further if you give them AT then light vehicles will be in a bad way.

Its very very tricky.

This keeps putting me back to the idea that maybe they should get 3 SVTs that do more damage and 3 Mosins keeping the DPS the same and allowing the SVTs to die last similarly to the advantage Grens get with weapon upgrades.

This and lower their price but not cheaper then Agrens.

I play wth my penals a lot. Sometimes I play with other peoples penals. I loooooooveee penal......squads

I play wth my penals a lot. Something I play with other peoples penals. I loooooooveee penal......squads

Do you sometimes have Penal envy when playing as Ost? MVGame