New Air Superiority Doctrine

Hey guys,

Has anyone else downloaded the new Air Superiority doctrine from the "Make War not Love" Steam event?

I'm yet to try it out, but holy cow it looks OP!

First CP gives you recon flight, then second CP gives you to munitions you need to fund the next 3 air support CPs.... Will be interesting to see how the community reacts to it.

It's cool. Not OP though. The strafes aren't your regular strafes where the plane keeps coming back. They're single runs costing 60 munitions for the Anti Infantry Strafe (Pins Infantry) and 90 for the AT Strafe (hardly does damage to Vehicles, heavy damage to inf (basically the old skillplane, with just one run)). Recon is also cheaper and one run. Good doctrine in my POV.

Let's see with the balance patch tomorrow. Man that JU-87 needs buff. It is supposed to "Panzer-bust" but barely does any damage to a T-34.

Hey guys,

Has anyone else downloaded the new Air Superiority doctrine from the "Make War not Love" Steam event?

I'm yet to try it out, but holy cow it looks OP!

First CP gives you recon flight, then second CP gives you to munitions you need to fund the next 3 air support CPs.... Will be interesting to see how the community reacts to it.

come on be serious it's nothing OP about it , the strafings are nerfed and you get munitions by sacrificing your fuel .. it delays tanks etc. both commanders are nice in my opinion but the soviet one is more interesting

The Ostheer commander is more team games oriented I think.

come on be serious it's nothing OP about it , the strafings are nerfed and you get munitions by sacrificing your fuel .. it delays tanks etc. both commanders are nice in my opinion but the soviet one is more interesting

I guess it just looks OP on paper. As I said, I have not actually tried it out. Was unaware that the strafes were actually nerfed. Thanks for the reply

I dont find this doctrine useful because stukas only do 1 pass :/, If it stayed the same as the others stukas (and ofcourse munitions cost increase), I think this would be more helpful in teamgames. In fact, I think Luftwaffe supply doctrine is more useful than this one.

try this doctrin in 2vs2 games, combined with the luftwaffe doctrine.
All you need is T1&T2. I've had the hole game over 400 munition ;D

This commander is sadly not really worth all the hype. It's only one strafe and the cooldown is super long so you end up floating on lots of munis just because you're waiting for the cooldown for all of your airplanes to finish. Not to mention on snow maps you get a disadvantage cuz you can't use planes during blizzards. The infantry strafe is not bad. It pins the infantry, but the anti-tank strafe hardly does anything except for light tanks. Medium tanks don't even flinch, unlike the soviet strafe which kills both tanks and inf.

Like anything it needs to be used to its strenghts. And that is by playing well. This doc is mostly useful if you have the balls to sacrifice fuel for munis (to make it efficient) or you need to play so well and dominate the map that it almost doesn't matter.

The last month or so I've noticed most soviet players go for builds that include Guards/Shocks into SU85 or doctrinal heavy tanks - this means no harassing or anoying T50 or T34/76. In my opinion, this meta plays into the hands of the Close Air Support doctrine.

1. Recon run is nice. You get to spy on the opponents unit spread = you can single out lone capping units and not get surprised by 4 more con squads with PPSH lurking near by. Plus you get to see the opponents tech choice in his base. No T1/2 or T3 building at 8-10 mins = waiting for T4 and SU85 or stalling for T34/85/ISU/IS2. Knowing what your opponent is doing is always an immense advantage (why I find the 0cp radio intercept in the new soviet doc insanely useful).

2. Hoard of cons/shocks/guards? No problem just 60 muni - instapin. This stalls the attack and can give you the chance to run in PGrens or Flametracks to get in the face of uncle Stalin.

3. If you play decently i.e. about 50-60% of the map and have already teched to Tier 2 this means you can trade some fuel for munis = more tellers which wreck T85 if they are carelessly rushed in. T85 call in basically renders the German T3 building useless so sticking to shrecks/paks for AT and stalling for panther/tiger might be a smarter choice imo. I.e. more fuel to munis conversion. Also since your opponent is going heavy on the infantry you might also find Pgrens/Flamers/Snipers more interesting to use. Pgrens vet really fast and melt conscripts like butter. At Vet 3 they are complete beasts.

It also means more S-mine fields that have been vastly improved (on my first try 3/4 of the field destroyed a full con + 4/6 guards. 10/12 models isn't bad for 60 muni). It also means more strafes, more flamers, more MG42/Shrecks/G43 on your guys which should translate into more map superiority.

4.One of my biggest problems so far has been the Soviet howitzer. Problem? Recon run + 50kg Stuka bomb = no more arty. Find an annoying base building? Wreck it; your opponent retreats 4-5 inf squads - recon his base and Stuka those bastards. 50kg bombs should be enough to even destroy the HQ if I'm not completely wrong.

So far I've enjoyed using this, the problem is that it isn't useful at all if you find yourself cut off or if you lose the early game map control. So it's a nice option but it's not viable in exactly every game. That's my 5 cents.

My thoughts exactly. I still can't decide wether it's better to not tech at all and save the res or if it's better to go for at least some armor. The thing with armor in this doctrin is that the cost for the tech basically increase the cost for the individual tank more that usual. On the other hand some soviet armor is hard to counter with mines, pak, schreck and fausts only. If it was just a bit easier to figure out which doctrin the soviets are using.
I feel the doctrin is a bit stronger on maps where one can hide schreckt up PGs behind lots of stuff to close range to enemy armor otherwise they get decimated too quickly by the suprisingly effectiv anti inf capabilities of soviet tanks.

Most Soviet armor is almost completely destroyed by Teller Mines. Light tanks and vehicles are T34/76 damn near, T34/85 hurt badly. This like the Ostruppen Doctrine gives you the ability to plant Tellars pretty easily.

And then there is the Airstrikes. One for Recon, AI, and AT. Its pretty Solid imho if used to its strengths as noted earlier and not just spam yourself out of fuel.

I am pretty satisfied with using it. I havent played against it in team games. It may be the new Opel/Strafe due to the increased muni in team game modes.

My thoughts on the commander:

1. Bland. There isn't really anything compelling about this commander. The strafe runs require no skill, and are easily avoided on retreat. That's not to say that a 90 munition force retreat or take the manpower loss is not usefull, I just don't find it all that interesting.

2. Gimped on winter maps. I find it pretty unfortunate that the majority of this commanders usefulness is negated by a randomly occurring blizzard. It should almost never be selected on winter maps, which makes keeping it as one of your three commander choices in your load out a liability.

3. Love the fuel > munitions mechanic. I would love to see this worked into more commanders. I think it provides a really great alternative to playing the Germans. I love being able to use all of those tasty upgrades and abilities that the Germans have.

All in all I think this commander probably has a place in 3v3 and 4v4 matches, but I won't be using it in 1v1 or 2v2. I think the luftwaffles commander was more fleshed and has more of its own identity. This commander feels shallow to me.

Hanswurst:

Yeah it would be more helptful if doctrines werent overlapping but basically the meta still revolves around the ones that have Guards+PPSH, Shocks+PPSH and I guess initially the new doctrine. This kind of narrows it down to 3-4 viable options from Soviets, and if you play badly against them, the game is over long before the heaviest of the tank behemoths hit the field (ISU152, IS2 are the ones I think you're referring to).

JHeartless:

True, but AT-strafe is incredibly underwhelming at the moment. If opponent rushes for SU85's maybe a PAK43 emplacement with proper support is a better answer than to counter an dedicated Anti-Tank unit with tanks (Panthers, PIV, STUG - two of them can even chew up a Tiger easily) or with a highly unreliable strafe. Shrecks at 120 munis are something you get to keep all game (assuming you haven't upset the RNG gods) and do consistent damage to medium tanks and SU85's.

I of course always upset the RNG gods and find that my Shrecks get sniped by the AT-gun reliably so I don't know....

FestiveLongJohns

Not trying to argue but I still want to answer your post.

1. Strafe requires macro-skill. So does chosing when to get 150 munis over throwing away 50 fuel. And to me that is an important part of the game. Zeal/FTFL in vCoh are more "no skill" abilities - Zeal is passive and FTFL costs so little that it's cost had little meta-impact. 50 Fuel on the other hand is a heavy investment that can further push your tech back a good 2-5 minutes which in the COH2 timeline is like I dunno CENTURIES.

2. Haven't thought about it this way, and it is a very good point. I always de-select the blizzard maps because I hate the gameplay and hearing my troops whining about the cold. I do understand it's impact though.

3. YESSSSS.


What makes it hard is that you really won't know if you can use this doctrine viably until its too late in the game. Pick it too early and you really screw yourself over - pick it too late and you have failed to draw advantage of any of its perks - which are pretty strong in the early game around the time the T2 pops. Fully upgrated grens, shrecks, flames, mines, all kinds of heavy munition usage that soviets have learned not to expect.

Many of the other docs have such distinct advantages early on (Shocks-Guards) or have all its punch a little later toward the heavy tanks - this CAS doctrine really fails in that. The CP-timing is a little off too imo but I have nothing more than that hunch to go on.


I do on the other hand think it lends itself to a different playstyle and that makes it interesting to me in regardless if it is 1v1 or bigger team games. Russians load up on massive AT with AT-Guns and SU85 because they expect the Panther in the meta. By forgoing the an armor (by trading fuel for munis) in your mid game build you also reduce the efficiency of your opponents units. Instead of a Panther/Tiger you might hit his Shock/Guard army with more AI (MG, Mortar, Flames, LMG42, G43, Grenades, Strafes etc). You can even go for a Panzerwaffle rocket truck or whatever its called to deal a lot of damage to his soft tisse units that are expensive to re-inforce and maybe force his hand to rush his SU85 into your AT-Guns and Shrecked PGrens.

But this is in an ideal game. Most likely the Soviets are just going to WTFpwn you before 10 minutes so why even try

Hanswurst:

Yeah it would be more helptful if doctrines werent overlapping but basically the meta still revolves around the ones that have Guards+PPSH, Shocks+PPSH and I guess initially the new doctrine. This kind of narrows it down to 3-4 viable options from Soviets, and if you play badly against them, the game is over long before the heaviest of the tank behemoths hit the field (ISU152, IS2 are the ones I think you're referring to).

JHeartless:

True, but AT-strafe is incredibly underwhelming at the moment. If opponent rushes for SU85's maybe a PAK43 emplacement with proper support is a better answer than to counter an dedicated Anti-Tank unit with tanks (Panthers, PIV, STUG - two of them can even chew up a Tiger easily) or with a highly unreliable strafe. Shrecks at 120 munis are something you get to keep all game (assuming you haven't upset the RNG gods) and do consistent damage to medium tanks and SU85's.

I of course always upset the RNG gods and find that my Shrecks get sniped by the AT-gun reliably so I don't know....

FestiveLongJohns

Not trying to argue but I still want to answer your post.

1. Strafe requires macro-skill. So does chosing when to get 150 munis over throwing away 50 fuel. And to me that is an important part of the game. Zeal/FTFL in vCoh are more "no skill" abilities - Zeal is passive and FTFL costs so little that it's cost had little meta-impact. 50 Fuel on the other hand is a heavy investment that can further push your tech back a good 2-5 minutes which in the COH2 timeline is like I dunno CENTURIES.

2. Haven't thought about it this way, and it is a very good point. I always de-select the blizzard maps because I hate the gameplay and hearing my troops whining about the cold. I do understand it's impact though.

3. YESSSSS.


What makes it hard is that you really won't know if you can use this doctrine viably until its too late in the game. Pick it too early and you really screw yourself over - pick it too late and you have failed to draw advantage of any of its perks - which are pretty strong in the early game around the time the T2 pops. Fully upgrated grens, shrecks, flames, mines, all kinds of heavy munition usage that soviets have learned not to expect.

Many of the other docs have such distinct advantages early on (Shocks-Guards) or have all its punch a little later toward the heavy tanks - this CAS doctrine really fails in that. The CP-timing is a little off too imo but I have nothing more than that hunch to go on.


I do on the other hand think it lends itself to a different playstyle and that makes it interesting to me in regardless if it is 1v1 or bigger team games. Russians load up on massive AT with AT-Guns and SU85 because they expect the Panther in the meta. By forgoing the an armor (by trading fuel for munis) in your mid game build you also reduce the efficiency of your opponents units. Instead of a Panther/Tiger you might hit his Shock/Guard army with more AI (MG, Mortar, Flames, LMG42, G43, Grenades, Strafes etc). You can even go for a Panzerwaffle rocket truck or whatever its called to deal a lot of damage to his soft tisse units that are expensive to re-inforce and maybe force his hand to rush his SU85 into your AT-Guns and Shrecked PGrens.

But this is in an ideal game. Most likely the Soviets are just going to WTFpwn you before 10 minutes so why even try

Yes the AT Strafe reminds me more of a COH1 Faust. Decent one shot AT damage that isnt going to destroy the tank unless its mostly dead but it will put a dent in it. Combine If a tank hit a Tellar this WILL finish of that tank. Plain and simple. So its situational right?

The same argument could be had for the Soviet Satchel charge...its 45 muni but if I save 60 muni for a flamer i could keep clearing buildings the whole game. This is the designed dilemma that I like so much in the game.

And like all other doctrines before Elite Forces and the new Soviet doctrine it should have at least one Meh ability in it. (smoke pods anyone?)

My thoughts on the commander:
3. Love the fuel > munitions mechanic. I would love to see this worked into more commanders. I think it provides a really great alternative to playing the Germans. I love being able to use all of those tasty upgrades and abilities that the Germans have.

This ability helps a lot with the current PPSh spam meta, you can upgrade all your grens with LMGs and build a few MG bunkers at key points of the map.

Stephen from mTw has being using this commander pretty effectively in 1v1 on his streams on the mTw channel recently. He normally goes with 1 P IV supported by a pak or 2/pak and shreks and then spends the rest of his fuel on muni's to just dominate the maps copious amounts of strafe usage.

It looks really good if you can get the strafe in the right spot. Apparently it takes a bit of practice though.

I'm facing a crises. My dearly beloved Mech Assault have been getting tramp treated lately. I can't keep up man for man and - a bit of paranoia here - I swear assgrens are purposely slow.

I tried this doctrine. It's SLOW (like assgrens), nothing like my preferred play style, fast attack.

But there's this tactic I'm wondering about. I skip T3 and 4, and use Pgrens with shrek using the muni supply ability. I abuse it and build flamer pio's too.

I just finished a game where I suppress with either MG or strafing run, then move to attack. That was my 3rd play with this doc since over a week so I still lost, but I nearly turned the game around destroying almost everything from Cons to katyushas.

Btw Relic there a bug where clicking for grenades or air strikes wont place the ability marker on the field.

My regular 2v2 partner uses this commander in almost all of our games now. The anti-infantry strafe can really save your bacon if you're getting charged by five squads of PPSh conscripts, which, in the current patch, is going to happen in >50% of games. It doesn't really do any damage, but it will insta-pin anything it catches. It's got a long enough cooldown that it stays balanced (imho) while still providing good emergency blob control.

This doctrine is absolutly fantastic. I used to play with lightning war but when I compare those 2 its obvious that Ari support is a way better. It provides me extra ammo for flame truck, schercks and still I ve got fuel for T4 and panthers.
But best ability is the last one. No flares on the ground, just sound and BOOM. Everything goes down. Yesterday I killed this way 3 squads of schocks.
Still I prefer 90 ammo for 1 AT run rather than 240 for circle attack. If russians see flares and run away I lose many ammo..
It also allows to put AT and AI mines everywhere.
I woulod love to see fuel -> ammo ability in different commanders.