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russian armor

New commanders not OP and Free?

18 Feb 2014, 18:50 PM
#21
avatar of BartonPL

Posts: 2807 | Subs: 6

I have to disagree that Ost commander is useful. I have listed the reasons below:

1) Icons are identical with icons already in game, although the abilities are not actually those abilities

2) Commander has two useful abilities and three that are bad
a) Recon fly by is fine for cost, but with lag input it is almost useless since arty abilities rarely trigger as it flies by
b) Fuel to munitions is good for Ost so this one is ok
c) One strafe pass is not very useful since it only pins one squad or two and yet comes out at 6 cp's, so you could have regular strafe at same time. Also soviets can just wait it out since it does not come back.
d) Stuka 37mm strafe is one of the worst abilities in game right now. It comes late, does not track, and does minimal damage unless it is right on top of a unit. It also flies in so its timing is uncertain. Combine this with the fact that in this commander it is a single pass and you get a 90 munitions burn for literally nothing.
e) Stuka dive bomb is good, same as original

3) Abilities have timers like original abilities but do not operate in same fashion, looks very amateur.

4) Forces Ost to rely on munitions heavy strats, within an extremely munitions limited faction


Soviet commander by contrast is quite good.

1) Arguably allows either T1 or T2 opening or simple conscript spam
2) Works synergistically with late game to give excellent medium tank and tank destroyer
3) Provides excellent balance of abilities to round out play style

TLDR: The Soviet commander is not OP, it is just a good commander. I foresee it replacing many other options. The Ost commander is not good and will be relegated to comp stomp games at best.

I am so tired of commanders at this point, I do not want to see one more commander added to this game.


Germans planes in this doc are half cost compared to their full versions, and i like strafe more than it's full version because you can pin squads that you want instantly, and it's harder to avoid. 37mm stuka is really weak, but for it's cost it might be usefull to kill Halftrucks and lighter vehicles.

No doubt about Soviet commander, all abilities are useful and good for all the game stages
18 Feb 2014, 18:51 PM
#22
avatar of Kronosaur0s

Posts: 1701

I have 1mb of internet and I have issue nº2-a.
18 Feb 2014, 18:53 PM
#23
avatar of WilliG

Posts: 157

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Feb 2014, 17:30 PMWilliG


All the abilities are not completely recycled, the strafe runs are all only one pass for both, which is a difference from the old abilities. Also the t34 call in, as mentioned by others. Not COMPLETELY different, but different enough to change how they play.
18 Feb 2014, 20:18 PM
#24
avatar of Imagelessbean

Posts: 1585 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Feb 2014, 18:34 PMKatitof

Why do you think icon look have an impact on usefulness of the ability?


Not an issue nor an excuse, unless you play on 7 year old rig and 1mb radio net.



You contradict yourself.

1 pass is enough to explit the advantage it gives. If you can't, it means you have used it and done absolutely nothing.


This is pretty much the only issue you are right about.





Because the two factions function completely differently.

Soviets need to rely on a doctrine, while for germans its just a supplemental thing.

Moreover the two doctrines have completely different functions, one is specialist support, other is general purpose, you can't compare them at all only because you got them at the same time.


The appearance of the icon gives the player a statement of what they are getting, in this case they are misrepresented. I would not put a picture of an mg in place of the panther's image.

Lag input occurs not as a result of the power of the PC but of P2P problems.

I said that munitions for fuel is fine, but that this is not a good excuse to provide munitions heavy call ins in a munitions limited doctrine. If you think even with munitions exchange a Ost player can not worry about munitions you are very wrong. By sacrificing fuel they must now use munitions to kill tanks and heavier equipment. It is a strategy change not a solution to the underlying problem.

Strafe is good because it loiters and therefore forces infantry off the field. Because of larger soviet squad size you can just ignore single pass strafes. Both strafes appear on the field at exactly the same time. Why?

Ost does not need to rely as heavily on its doctrine as the Soviets do, but if you think that Ost does not need to worry about the doctrine it picks you need to play more Ost.
18 Feb 2014, 21:01 PM
#25
avatar of coh2player

Posts: 1571

how much is the single call-in T-34/85? Thanks in advance...I recently uninstalled COH2.
18 Feb 2014, 21:14 PM
#26
avatar of lanciano

Posts: 210

360mp and 130f
18 Feb 2014, 21:21 PM
#27
avatar of coh2player

Posts: 1571

Thanks. This makes the T-34/85 actually affordable. I'd say that people will probably max out on 3 instead of 4 during late game.
18 Feb 2014, 21:23 PM
#28
avatar of WilliG

Posts: 157

From playing 4 2v2s with it yesterday I can say that it's not a bad price at all. The increased flexibility is nice, allows for some interesting unit combinations, which I think is why it costs a bit more than the dual.

Was able to get an su 76, two t34/85s and a katyusha which was pretty effective. 2 34/76 into 34/85s was also pretty good.
18 Feb 2014, 21:25 PM
#29
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8



The appearance of the icon gives the player a statement of what they are getting, in this case they are misrepresented. I would not put a picture of an mg in place of the panther's image.

No, the ability list gives the player a statement of what they are getting.


I said that munitions for fuel is fine, but that this is not a good excuse to provide munitions heavy call ins in a munitions limited doctrine. If you think even with munitions exchange a Ost player can not worry about munitions you are very wrong. By sacrificing fuel they must now use munitions to kill tanks and heavier equipment. It is a strategy change not a solution to the underlying problem.

Then you have a complete lack of understanding of what commanders are.
Commanders ARE strategy change. If all commanders allowed you for same strat and same ways of dealing with things, WHY would we have different ones in the first place?


Strafe is good because it loiters and therefore forces infantry off the field. Because of larger soviet squad size you can just ignore single pass strafes. Both strafes appear on the field at exactly the same time. Why?

It doesn't force off anything if you don't move in with your troops to finish off pinned infantry. It just delays them. Effectiveness of strafing run is in 100% dependent on what you do after the pin, it doesn't matter if its one loiter or 10.

Ost does not need to rely as heavily on its doctrine as the Soviets do, but if you think that Ost does not need to worry about the doctrine it picks you need to play more Ost.

I've played enough to state at least 50% of games I had I could have won even if I haven't picked a doctrine at all. This is also what I see on streams, germans play often enough up to 6-8cp without selecting one. Soviets can't afford this, but we all know that. This particular doctrine allows for new things ost couldn't do before, now they can if they choose too. Its also not as muni heeavy as you make it seem, because all of the abilities cost 50% less then their originals and, again, you have fuel to muni ability to supplement yourself.
18 Feb 2014, 21:27 PM
#30
avatar of coh2player

Posts: 1571

The important thing that I've always complained about...is the fact that w/ the dual T-34/85s you really have to store fuel and MP up while the Ostheer pumps out P4 after P4.

This delay, which can be measured in minutes is an early gameplay disadvantage since you can't have one T-34/85 moving around and doing damage. Now with this commander one can pump out the T-34/85 once they reach the CPs quickly or immediately.
18 Feb 2014, 21:58 PM
#31
avatar of Greeb

Posts: 971

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Feb 2014, 18:34 PMKatitof

Because the two factions function completely differently.

Soviets need to rely on a doctrine, while for germans its just a supplemental thing.


So true.
Soviet doctrines always would seems more "useful", but it is because they rely much more in doctrinal units and abilities.
18 Feb 2014, 22:13 PM
#32
avatar of herr anfsim

Posts: 247

Free and not OP? Pherhaps those two are connected?
19 Feb 2014, 00:28 AM
#33
avatar of pigsoup
Patrion 14

Posts: 4301 | Subs: 2

Why do relic keep giving Ost munition heavy doctrines and abilities? 30 munitions for an anti-inf upgrade for conscripts but for grens it's 60 munitions. The problem with the IL2 wasn't just it's damage, it was the fact that soviets can amass that much munitions in the first place.


there's fuel to muni ability...

also having a lot of muni options doesnt translate to muni-starved...
19 Feb 2014, 09:45 AM
#34
avatar of BabaRoga

Posts: 829



Germans planes in this doc are half cost compared to their full versions, and i like strafe more than it's full version because you can pin squads that you want instantly, and it's harder to avoid. 37mm stuka is really weak, but for it's cost it might be usefull to kill Halftrucks and lighter vehicles.

No doubt about Soviet commander, all abilities are useful and good for all the game stages


Agree, I might add recon followed by bombing run is quite deadly as there isn't much time to get out of the way (mortars, maxims, etc especially vulnerable)

Tho I only experienced this in 4v4 game and units are lot more grouped then I would usually have in 1v1 or 2v2.
however I think it could prove to be quite useful
19 Feb 2014, 12:39 PM
#35
avatar of Aurgelwulf

Posts: 184

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Feb 2014, 00:28 AMpigsoup


there's fuel to muni ability...

also having a lot of muni options doesnt translate to muni-starved...


If it was manpower to munitions, it would be fine, but no German player can afford the 50 fuel.
20 Feb 2014, 13:02 PM
#36
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8



If it was manpower to munitions, it would be fine, but no German player can afford the 50 fuel.

Probably because every german player is stuck with "I Need to get as much P4s in shortest time possible" mindset.
The doctrine is based on heavy T1/T2 play with light med armor support asnd heavy off map support. If you will play it like other doctrines, you'll fail because you will completely miss its purpose.
21 Feb 2014, 00:14 AM
#37
avatar of BabaRoga

Posts: 829

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Feb 2014, 13:02 PMKatitof

Probably because every german player is stuck with "I Need to get as much P4s in shortest time possible" mindset.
The doctrine is based on heavy T1/T2 play with light med armor support asnd heavy off map support. If you will play it like other doctrines, you'll fail because you will completely miss its purpose.


Right, you don't actually need to go past t2. Its mighty powerful and enough ammo to upgrade every unit, and continuous airstrikes.

And you actually become more powerful force as the game goes on.

Playing Semois with air supperiority, you start feeling sorry for Soviet player..
21 Feb 2014, 02:00 AM
#38
avatar of blitz1337

Posts: 184

I love the new Ostheer commander, using it over elite everygame now. Still yet to lose.
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