Elite Mod Continues - Version 2.2+

T3 alone isn't too powerful, it's T3 backed up with T2 which is too good to pass up in favor of T1-T3/T1-T4/T1-T2-T4.

Grenspam even got slightly better now that sniper spam has been nerfed a bit: all you really need is vetted inf and a single countersniper. It's hard to beat as US if you lack rifle vet (i.e. you went fast m8).

T3 alone isn't too powerful, it's T3 backed up with T2 which is too good to pass up in favor of T1-T3/T1-T4/T1-T2-T4.

Grenspam even got slightly better now that sniper spam has been nerfed a bit: all you really need is vetted inf and a single countersniper. It's hard to beat as US if you lack rifle vet (i.e. you went fast m8).

Agreed.

I disagree with the suggested volknerfs aswell. The Tier1 phase is pretty balanced right now, with lowered upkeep and reinforce costs for riflemen. The reason US starts to be pushed back later is partly because of this lack of rifle vet. Increasing the veterancy award rifles get from killing volks (not from any other units/lowering their overall vet requirements!) might be a nice tweak.

I agree Rifles aren't getting as much Vet as they used to.

You think the issue is Volks (/heavy T1 Strats), rather than Vet 2 Grens? Or do you just think increasing the XP of Volks is the best way to help Rifles get Vet, regardless of whether Volks are the problem?

I think I see where you're going with that, because it's a penalty to heavy T1 strats later in the game.

I'll have to think about it more, but I'd love to hear more opinions on Rifle vet, where the issue is coming from, and the best way to fix it (if you feel it needs addressing).

I agree Rifles aren't getting as much Vet as they used to.

Just solid 'Aimstrong' Wehr play, doing vvmgs, stalling till tier 2 was popular. Not giving away veterancy is just key to good Wehr play. And then breaking it with usually the sniper.

You guys are still all with 2.602 in your heads. If Devm played in last tournament u'd all be screaming USA OP. xp

Last patch was double nerf for us early game - wm t1 buffs and rifle vet changes. Revert back either one. If not wm t1 - give rifles more vet as it was before with rax upgrades. I'd choose more rifle vet over lowered reinforce any day.

Last patch was double nerf for us early game - wm t1 buffs and rifle vet changes. Revert back either one. If not wm t1 - give rifles more vet as it was before with rax upgrades. I'd choose more rifle vet over lowered reinforce any day.

Exactly. I never get it why they moved the vet to SY. And with the earned vet u can fight t3 more easily.

Exactly. I never get it why they moved the vet to SY. And with the earned vet u can fight t3 more easily.

So okay beta history story telling time:

What happened was, Pak got nerfed, but US forces were suddenly overwhelming Wehr with w/e strategy they did. So we we're trying to balance the scale by smaller changes like: Pak cost from 310 to 290, medic pack 5 munitions cheaper, volks cap faster after tier 2 upgrade, Riflemen veterancy bonus from Bars and sticky to supply yard level 2.

But suddenly Relic decided it wasn't going fast enough and they did some superbuffs to Wehr tier 1. Volks building time 28s 265mp reinforce cost 21, MG buffs (most of them are still here today), Tier 1 building and Tier 2 building cost was reduced.
Then I cried a lot

Then there was some kind of consensus between Cohexperts and the Relic developer to revert most of the stupid buffs and keep some.

But tbh, I think Elite mod solves most of these problems by the reinforce cost of rifleman being lower and jeep buff. Rifleman can now trade with Volks for a fair price (still a bit higher manpower but they get experience!).

If you buff US further (or nerf Wehr) USA will become the superior faction once again. I do realize things like vetted Grens, Stugs and Puma seem very strong at times but you have to remember Wehr still needs ways to win aswell ...
For example: USA goes BARS + Nades, ofc a Wehr option is too respond with an extra tier 1 unit. Wtf, that's just the game. Or should the Wehr player decide to get overrun and out veterancy scaled every time in every situation?

I think if you just look at all the elite mod games you will find games where US dominates. My series vs Pepsi for example.

Also this discussion is still very unclear: One says Wehr Tier 1 dominates outright, The other says: Hmm I think we need faster lategamescaling on Riflemen to be able to fight elite Grens.

For Vetted Grens problem: well maybe maybe, putting the experience bonuses on the upgrades again is an option. But lets take a look at the other natural counters first (except for snipers). Croc is great now honestly. Mortar could use with some QoL buffs and a thing I would consider lowering is engineer veterancy scaling. (Which is the same as roflmen but lower without the upgrades.) Maybe some vetted flamers can make a difference for once.

On a final note: Maybe the M8 should be a tiny tiny bit more effective vs infantry units. In the tournament it was often build when no Wehr Pak was on the field but it hardly punished the Wehr player.

Added v2.3

BUG FIXES
- Puma burst bug eliminated (effectiveness should be the same overall but more consistent)
- Casualties no longer reveal Snipers
- Snipers no longer fire twice rapidly when reloading their weapon
- Inspired Assault now properly applies bonuses and penalties to MG42s and Mortars
- Inspired Assault no longer applies bonuses or penalties to Paks, Nebels, Medics, or Repair Bunker Pioneers

BALANCE

Wehrmacht
- Reduced HT and StuG MG42 Suppression by 50%
- Increased StuG and StuH Pop Cap from 4 to 6
- Reduced the speed of the Nebelwerfer from 2.75 to 2
- Removed a 5% chance Pumas would kill infantry at high health
- Reverted costs of Escalate to Battle Phase (T4) and Panzer Command to vanilla values
- Reverted For the Fatherland to vanilla values
- Reverted Inspired Assault to vanilla values

If we want to follow up these slight T3 nerfs with T4 buffs, I think KCH Vet to 3 (from 4) and meeting the StuG/HT MG42s in the middle would be good places to start.

- Reverted costs of Escalate to Battle Phase (T4) and Panzer Command to vanilla values

Why was it reverted?

I recently played some games with Pepsi and we talked about the croc a bit.
The main reason why people prefer the sherman over a croc is that the sherman counters infantry as good as vehicles (basically up to tier4). The croc counters only infantry (basically only tier2), but both vehicles come at the same time. Since wehr can tech up to tier3 easily, the croc has only a small window of advantage, when wehr goes for tier2 vet2 inf, but does not scale further.
Instead of overbuffing the basic croc to make it more attractive, what about making the 75mm main gun an upgrade too, say about 100mun?
Pepsi had the idea, that you have a common sherman upgrade instead of the 76mm, which unlocks either the 76mm or the croc flamer for the sherman.

On a further note the inspired assault and zeal combination is abit problematic:
Zeal grants defensive boni (less damage) and offensive boni (less suppression, weapon buffs). Inspired assault also grants weapon boni, which makes both abilites used at the same time very attractive in the offense, but breaks this gameplay, by having 2men squad as requirement (sniper victims) and removing the advantage of taking less damage by adding higher received accuracy.
Of course abilites need a downside, but i think its the wrong ones. In result, because both abilites collide, inspired assault is rarely used. Also USA can beat this easily by having 2 snipers.
I thought about it abit and gambled what if inspired assault adds heroic crits to certain infantry. This way both abilites have a better synergy and you can play it in a more offensive way, the doctrine is focused on. It also comes in line with the wehr policy, that doctrines grants special non doc abilites to all units like the assault grenades (KCH have assault grenades -> doctrine grants them to volks and grens too. KCH and officer have heroic crits -> doctrine would grant them to volks and grens too)

Since afaik Tommy thought about redoing the assault grenades and we talked about stuh redesign, the above abilites have their right to be thought about.

I also want to note, that the flamer HT is still rarely used, because its easily stickied by its small range.

T4 cost was reverted because I think that's the wrong way to make T4 more attractive. It helped if you wanted to go T4, but first we have to make you actually want to go T4. As long as T3 gets the job done sooner and cheaper (any amount cheaper) it will continue to be more attractive. So we go back to vanilla and try to approach this from another angle.

Right now there's a ton of role overlap between T3 and T4. Mass StuGs do the job of Panthers, Mass Vet StuGs do the job of PIVs, Pumas do the job of Ostwinds, and Nebels are a lot better than Stukas for a lot cheaper.

We have to break up some of that overlap through little nerfs to T3 where they do the job of T4 units. You see some of that above - weaker StuG MG which gives the PIV back some of its anti-infantry edge. Nebel made slower to emphasize the mobility of the Stuka. Small T4 buffs can come with it but we haven't talked about those enough yet.

I think that Inspired Assault and Zeal have really good synergy - Inspired Assault causes you to lose men faster, which kicks Zeal in sooner, which negates a lot of IA's penalties and gives you insane offensive bonuses.

That's part of why I'm unsure about reducing IA's penalty, it removes quit a bit of that synergy. I agree with you about the threat of Snipers being a threat to Zeal, but that doesn't have much to do with IA being unattractive imo.

Honestly I think the #1 reason IA isn't used is because it's on the wrong side of the tree. Even in its current form I think it's a good ability, but you don't usually unlock it until after you have a KT, and the KT usually decides the game.

If you feel IA needs more work (outside the obvious fix), I think there are 3 obvious ways to take it.

1. Lower the penalties, making it an offensive analogue of FtFL where it's a good idea to use it every time you can spare the munitions
2. Lower the munitions cost, distancing it from FtFL and making it something you want to use every time you can stomach the drawback of its penalties
3. Tweak or add to its bonuses. Your idea about Heroic crits would go in here, help make it attractive to units other than Schreck Grens.

Basically, do we want its drawback to be its cost or its penalties? Do we want it to be a mirror of FtFL or something different?

You're opening up the box of Pandora. Just partly revert some buffs on Wehrmacht t1 (increase the Volks reinforcement cost from 0.4 to 0.43 ffs), switch the StuG IV mg gunners with pIV + higher popcap (my guess would be 5) and test it again how the performance affects the game.

As for changes about IA - imo the idea to switch it with zeal is interesting. Removing the drawbacks would make sense, but then you need to consider increasing its cost. Wehrmacht is mostly defensive oriented. Suddenly being able to play offensive creates a whole new type of gameplay with unforeseen consequences.

Opening up Pandora's box with regards to...the Puma, or the idea of buffing T4?

I don't think that any T1 changes are simple. Rifles and Jeep are buffed, if you nerf WM at the same time you run into the same "double buff" that got us into this situation to begin with.

I take it you're of the opinion of reverting the Rifle/Jeep in favor of Volks reinforce nerf?

Ye I think he means changing Tier 1 is opening Pandora's box and I couldn't agree more on that point.

Ye and switching Zeal with Inspired Assault might be the 'nerf' that Terror needs.

Ye I think he means changing Tier 1 is opening Pandora's box and I couldn't agree more on that point.

Exactly. Careful adjustments are needed... Also I think the jeep buff is not THAT hard, because Fausts have much superior range compared to stickies, for example. Ofc it's not easy to faust a jeep micro'd by someone good at it, but it's not impossible.

The fact still remains that Volks overperformed during 2.602 a lot. Having a 1.34 mp/min upkeep on them + a 22mp reinforce cost simply makes them pretty cost efficient. Sure, rifle upkeep reductions help, but it's still a discrepancy of 22 to 24 and 6.72 mp/min to 14.4mp.

So, one fight where you loose 4 rifles against 4 volks over 1 min will still cost you ~10mp + 24+24+24+24 = 106(2.602 would be at 118!) while the Wehr player only looses ~5mp(upkeep)+22+22+22+22= 93(and my guess is that in first engagements it's sort of rare that 4 volks will die, more likely will be 3 before Wehr retreats).

Sure, I know that it's sort of theorycrafting, but still it shows a discrepancy.
As volks are just as strong as vanilla riflemen. Atm you have a difference of 13-35mp in the first engagement if Wehr wins, and even if he retreats. As Volks scale pretty well with infantry vet, they'll remain useful because they're more efficient than their upkeep cost.

With the old upkeep (28mp reinforce for volks) you'd be at 117. So, it would be pretty much equal to old riflemen upkeep+reinforce, creating a draw. If you put the reinforce to 0.43 that'll be 24mp/man for Volks. I'd try that and go from there.
Afterall, you have to remember that volks are not supposed to scale really. That's what Grens are for. Still, they scale really decent in 2.602. It would definately not hurt to reduce their scaling slightly. (also, as a side note: before 2.100 Rifle upkeep was at 22mp/man, because I'm sure relic was aware that USA in general suffered heavier losses than Wehr earlygame)

I also want to note, that the flamer HT is still rarely used, because its easily stickied by its small range.

Not necessarily. You see, it doesn't burn that well even when u pump napalm with both flame launchers, not to mention that you need T3 to unlock the upgrade. If you tech T3 is for pumas not for flamer HT or LMG's. I see that the croc got its AoE buffed from 4 to 5 which makes me want to see this on flamer HT too.

Exactly. Careful adjustments are needed... Also I think the jeep buff is not THAT hard, because Fausts have much superior range compared to stickies, for example. Ofc it's not easy to faust a jeep micro'd by someone good at it, but it's not impossible.

The fact still remains that Volks overperformed during 2.602 a lot. Having a 1.34 mp/min upkeep on them + a 22mp reinforce cost simply makes them pretty cost efficient. Sure, rifle upkeep reductions help, but it's still a discrepancy of 22 to 24 and 6.72 mp/min to 14.4mp.

This wasn't really a problem in 2.601 when you could get faster vet from upgrades. Volks don't scale well, hence the cheap price.

what hapened with teh snipers? we just played few games and the wehr sniper shots very very fast, i thought i got him with my 6 rifles behind him, but he just shot 4 of them in 2 seconds. maybe a bug? in the other games the same hapened

I see that the croc got its AoE buffed from 4 to 5 which makes me want to see this on flamer HT too.

Ye I wrote that down aswell.

My opinion differs from yours though that it does pump out decent napalm, I used it a couple of times with fast tech strategies, and I do think it's okayish.
It's specialty is that it works very good vs cover.
I've also considered lowering munitions cost a bit more, but I think that would make it spammable and just a cheaper / weaker replacement for the Puma.

I just think if we give it same treatment as Sherman Croc flamethrower. (AoE long + 25 percent and give it same projectile aswell, we made that a bit faster to even out the damage output.) It should be in a state that we could call good and viable in certain situations, without pushing it over the edge.

Quick update 2.4

BUG FIXES
- Fixed a bug in the last version with WM Sniper rate of fire

GAMEPLAY
- Hedgerows can be burned down with Flamethrowers. It takes approximately 25 seconds with infantry Flamethrowers.

BALANCE

Wehrmacht
- Increased damage and suppression of PIV and Panther Vet 2 MG42s to match (new, nerfed) StuG and HT levels
- Reduced XP given by KCH from 4 to 3
- Reverted the damage of BARs vs Heroic Armour to vanilla values

Burnable hedgerows will be interesting. It's cool, makes sense, and fits with the EliteMod idea, and could even help US break out of the Ango bunker pin, but I'm not sure how it might affect Langres.

Quick update 2.4

GAMEPLAY
- Hedgerows can be burned down with Flamethrowers. It takes approximately 25 seconds with infantry Flamethrowers.

Played a little bit with it on Ango. It will be a pain for the defensive style Wehr, for MGs, Paks....but I love it. Really adds a lot. Cool idea!