video of how broken shocks are.

Shocktroopers would be fine if they were to be put back to 2 cp.

Nerfing them and keeping them at 1cp would just be a huge 'F*ck you' to soviet players. It would make them soviet panzergrenadiers without the option for AT weapons and an added cost of 1 less commander slot.

No, keep the shcktroopers strong. Let the soviets have something that can stand up to upgraded german infantry. Just put them back at 2 cp.

I know its being said countless times, but some people still don't get it: they are most expensive, pure AI, doctrinal cqc infantry.

I always kinda cringe when I read arguments like this one. What are you trying to say with them being "most expensive", "pure AI" and "doctrinal"? Does that mean the unit deserves infinite strength? Hell, maybe we should have Shocks oneshot every infantrysquad they encounter cause they're so damn expensive.

I always kinda cringe when I read arguments like this one. What are you trying to say with them being "most expensive", "pure AI" and "doctrinal"? Does that mean the unit deserves infinite strength? Hell, maybe we should have Shocks oneshot every infantrysquad they encounter cause they're so damn expensive.

They are always compared with cheaper infantry, for obvious reasons.

Do you expect 1 T34 to win against 1 P4?
Then why do you expect 1 PG to fend off 1 shock?

Do you see anyone crying that 2-3 T70 can't beat 1 P4 even thou they cost more combined?
Why do you expect 2-3 grens to beat shocks?

Do 2 T34 will win with P4?
Just like 2 PGs will win against shocks.

Cost to effectiveness is pretty much the same.
Does that argument look better to you?

Because this is how the game is balanced.
Some units require more effort to counter then their counterparts on other faction.
Are they invincible? Only if you insist on attacking with units they hardcounter.

They are always compared with cheaper infantry, for obvious reasons.

In this topic they're not compared to cheap infantry at all: The op simply shows the ridiculous amount of stayingpower they have even versus a crazy amount of firepower. I don't give a fuck whether they're expensive, pure AI and doctrinal: they're simply WAY too strong for a unit u can call in at 1cp for 440 mp.

In the hands of any semi-decent player that uses his cons to scout for MG42's, and then flanks accordingly with his Shocks they're very much op when they come into play this early.

Good to see you know how the game is balanced by the way. Hows life at Relic studios?

They are always compared with cheaper infantry, for obvious reasons.

Lol. There is only cheaper infantry in the game . No one says that Shocks should not be the most powerful infantry of the game. What we are saying, is that they should go back to 2 cp and be just a little less durable. Shocks are meant to be countered by vehicles but they overperform a little against infantry. They are still relatively cheap for the power they offer. So, make them a little less durable or a little more expensive. 73 MP for one squad member is too less MP. One Pgren costs you 90 MP. And sure, Pgrens can be upgraded with powerful AT but that costs you a lot of ammo (120). Moreover, if you upgrade them, they don't stand a chance anymore to infantry, especially not vs. shocks.

Complete and utter bullshit.


Or learn to use proper counters?


But I know, that requires actual effort, you know, like it does for soviet to counter P4 with T3.

Im sorry but are YOU EFFFING KIDDDING. He had an entire army , shocks were even under mg fire and stilll were able to toss a nade. Im trying to refrain from personal attacks but seriously trolls like you make my blood boil. Even after watching shocks survive a attack by a whole platoon, even while being under mg fire the whole time, throwing a nade then running home alive, you say some dumb shit like learn to counter...................

Im sorry but are YOU EFFFING KIDDDING. He had an entire army , shocks were even under mg fire and stilll were able to toss a nade. Im trying to refrain from personal attacks but seriously trolls like you make my blood boil. Even after watching shocks survive a attack by a whole platoon, even while being under mg fire the whole time, throwing a nade then running home alive, you say some dumb shit like learn to counter...................

The thing when discussing balance is there's always people joining the discussion that don't give a rats ass about balance: they just play 1 faction and justify every op unit it has as totally fine. Why do I have a feeling thats exactly whats going on here as well lol.

It's also why I encourage people to link to their playercard in their profilepages. It would help others seeing their posts in perspective.

That was the whole point of my "high health unit problem" post.

Well, 2CP will help but still shock troops and spammable uber-tanks are one of the reasons COH has a lower skill cap than vCOH or dare I say other RTSes. Stuff just doesn't die, and in combination with RNG that means the more skilled player doesn't always win (mostly at the intermediate to upper intermediate levels - the top 25 are the 1% who throw the curve and are in a class by themselves I'd argue).

They need a significant decrease to survivability and a pretty hefty buff to their damage output, the end. They should be like Rangers without the Bazookas, now they are like a vet 3 blob of pioneers (without flamers) that can throw grenades.

Squad survives on retreat after being pinned... I really don't see the problem here? That is just how the mechanics of the game works. There would likely be similar results with a Gren squad retreating from an equivalent number of Soviet units...

I don't like early shocks because I feel like it rushes the early game too much for my personal taste but balance wise they're pretty clearly not overpowered. Anyone who thinks they are should re-evaluate their approach to dealing with Shocks...

I don't see the big seal. The shocks died pretty fast.

I don't see the big seal. The shocks died pretty fast.

Well, there were 5-6 squads shooting at them fully upgraded, IF they didnt die fast..then...

I see nothing wrong, not only that there is a reason why shocks are so resilient. They are the only soviet infantry capable of not getting cut like butter by german infantry. They give the Soviet player another option besides gaurds, the only thing that needs to be changed is it needs to be put back at 2cp no one complained about it before.

I see nothing wrong, not only that there is a reason why shocks are so resilient. They are the only soviet infantry capable of not getting cut like butter by german infantry. They give the Soviet player another option besides gaurds, the only thing that needs to be changed is it needs to be put back at 2cp no one complained about it before.

Yes, they weren't used as much because by that point in that game you had perhaps 5-6 units out, were reinforcing squads with losses and it became a serious strategic choice whether to field a shock squad or not. At 1 CP calling one in is pretty much a no-brainer, and you can have them out before you need to think about your MP drain and future manpower needs.

if anything, this video shows that shocks could be a little less durable, maybe 2.25 -> 2.0 armour. whether it needs to be back in 2cp its a completely different issue.

for an expensive AI unit, i think its perfect at 1 cp. there is no need to double nerf shocks like some of you are suggesting.

oops sorry, double post.

Unless they buff up Penals, Shocks have the strongest staying power throughout the entire game. Conscripts or Penals don't last nearly long enough in team games during late game and get chewed up by late game LMG grens and PGs. They're the best infantry counters against early Elite vetted Grens and Assault Grenadiers, much less early teammate aided vetted Assault Grenadiers.

Not getting into arguments if Shocks are OP'd or not.
But I had situations like this happen for or against me with many units.

Eng, Grens, Cons, Shocks, hell even an invincible sniper who retreated through 10 inf units and few tanks on its way home.

Sorry, but video shows common thing that happens often

I'd say shocks are perfectly fine as they are. IMO they are pretty much the only good elite infantry the Soviets have. They may be somewhat overused at the moment and an argument can be made (as it has been) that they should become available at 2 cps, but their stats are just fine.

Somebody has already pointed up, shocks are an extremely expensive doctrinal unit that happens to be a dedicated AI infantry. They are utterly useless against tanks, and their reinforcement and upkeep can easily run the soviet player's manpower dry. In other words, there is a lot of ways to kill them, and whenever you do, you hurt the other guy's economy greatly. I think it only makes sense that they are that good.

The video the OP delivered () displays 5 shocks dying in 13 seconds, and the last one escaping due to
- suppression/pin modifiers;
- retreat modifier;
- RNG of course;
- the OP not sending his PGrens after the retreating shocks (why btw? They were right there).

I fail to see how that makes them broken, sorry.

A little bit off topic: Whenever i see people unhappy with how strong shocks are, i remember how in CoH they've put G43s on steroids at some point and the only way it was possible to play 1v1 vs PE as the Americans was to basically avoid engaging the panzergren blob altogether, until the proper counter (m8) was on the field.

That's pretty much exactly what i do when fighting aginst shocks. Except, for Germans it's even easier, given that you don't need map control advantage to win.

You HAVE to choose your engagements carefully. Until proper counters, snipe them, or suppress them in red cover, or attack a lone squad with 2 pgrens, or mortar them into oblivion when they are capping a point. Dont fight them with stuff they are supposed to hardcounter. MG bunkers help a lot, MHT is awesome.

There's one thing i'd love to see though - a cheaper upgrade cost for the SC. That could become a nice long-range AI. IMO the way FHT is used right now is kind of ridiculous (not at all OP, just feels weird).

their reinforcement and upkeep can easily run the soviet player's manpower dry

Just no.

Only thing that reliable counter shocks well are snipers and flamers HT, and both of them are expensive glass cannon that a single little micro mistake can costs you a game, while the Soviet player just need to click a doctrine, calls shock and right click beside any dudes he wants to kill, with extreme durability, that is totally unfair and not fun to play against.

Back in 2CP era you cannot get that much shocks because Soviet needs to get a crapload of cons (or other stuff) before reaching 2CP, and Ostheer can already dig in with enough units, shocks can't bring that much impact.

But now, they arrived too early and facerape the whole Ostheer T1 before they can bring out counters.