The tiger ace syndrome

Soviet industry is still even more OP than the Tiger Ace doctrine.

But in casual-mid players hand, it is rather annoying then OP.

I love to see people throwing their windustry T-34 into my StuG

Never seen good player using windustry though.

Soviet industry is still even more OP than the Tiger Ace doctrine.

So a doctrine that makes you lose within 5 minutes of selecting it is more op than the 4 best axis early game abilities in the game plus the opportunity to call in the swag tiger if you so choose?

Pay2Win commanders, and don't tell me they're not. The only truly competitive and viable commanders are the DLC ones.

Buying veterancy was fine in CoH1 when that was the only way Wehrmacht ever got it.

Barton and Andy played with standard commanders on SNF. I haven't seen Ace/Blitzkrieg/whatever considered OP commanders.

The three starting commanders for the soviets are probably the best ones for the faction right now.

So the coh1 King Tiger also made you quit that game? Cause that was also paid for afterwards by upkeep, yet I heard nobody complain about that like they do about the Ace.

In late stages of the game, King Tiger required some manpower to call-in, it drained your manpower income, you could only call once in the game, and the main point, it was possible to kill it whitout relying in cheesy tactics like ramming it.

Tiger Ace is hugely better than King Tiger. King Tiger was just a Panther with steroids.
But Tiger Ace is a magic tank that kills everything, receives half damage, has a stupid number of hitpoints, vaporizes expensive ATguns with two shots, and to sum up, has been buffed with the 10 min no-resources penalty instead of not having resources anymore.

And the fact that it's free, that it will appear no matter what I do, and that it will be supported by cheap vet3 infantry makes me not want to play the game anymore.

I don't care if the commander is OP or not. It's just that I don't want to face a Tiger Ace every single game I play against a Elite Troops Commander player. And when I stopped playing the game, most axis players used that commander.

It's kinda boring to know exactly what will happen in the game in the first minutes.
I was tired of having to spam T34s and mines every single game just because my enemy had a free tank to use when the game was lost for him.

That's not strategy. That unit has not planification, nor saving resources for a tactical call-in... it's just a free ticket to win a lost game if you pay for that commander.

Relic said that no DLC will affect multiplayer, and that it wouldn't be P2W. They lied, and henceforth I won't play or buy another game of theirs.
I prefer to support with my money developers that doesn't lie to their customers.

Dude I feel you. I'm about to stop playing and tell every person I know to stop playing. I mean like active protest.

Relic said that no DLC will affect multiplayer, and that it wouldn't be P2W. They lied, and henceforth I won't play or buy another game of theirs.
I prefer to support with my money developers that doesn't lie to their customers.

I agree wholeheartedly with this statement.
I pre-ordered and pre-paid COH2 in October 2012 after reassurances were given on the GR forums by a Relic spokesperson regarding the P2W question.
They categorically stated that the game would not follow the P2W model.
The rest is history, as they say .......

I don't like to make big statements or empty treats like "I won't buy another game of a determined developer".
But it is true that I had my fears when I bought CoH2 because incoming DLCs probably would turn the game in a P2W. Relic say otherwise and I trusted and believed them and pre-ordered my copy of the game.

The game started to go wrong with the release of the assgren and FHQ commanders, but at least we had a fast hotfix that made that commander as useless as the default ones.

But Elite Troops and Soviet Industry have been here for a couple of months, and they still haven't been significantly changed and probably won't be, althought most of the community hates them.
Both commanders have spoiled my multiplayer experience, and that after being promised by Relic that DLCs won't have a big effect in multiplayer.

I'm aware now that this game will never be competitive, and that in the future, cheesy and OP commanders will appear intermittently in a desperate attempt to make money with a game that suffered its ups and downs time before its release.

Map editor, Steam Workshop, etc, are BIG improvements to the game, but they don't change anything if the game is boring to play and unfair to those who didn't purchase the new commanders.
Tiger Ace is not really the thing that made me leave the game, it's just the most evident symptom of how failed is the DLC strategy in this game.

Barton and Andy played with standard commanders on SNF. I haven't seen Ace/Blitzkrieg/whatever considered OP commanders.

Cause they were banned from the tournament.

Barton and Andy played with standard commanders on SNF. I haven't seen Ace/Blitzkrieg/whatever considered OP commanders.

It's because those commanders are banned from SNF due to them being OP.

Just wanted to chip in by saying:

1) Whilst it is clear that Relic need to make money from selling DLC, and I think most of us here would accept and agree with that in a broad sense, I am in general agreement with the negative feedback to Elite Troops and Industry, and I hope that it's something Relic will learn from. The concept of pre-vetted 'God units' does not belong in a game which wishes to promote itself as a balanced and competitive RTS. It's a dangerous road to go down, and the fact that competitions like SNF ban those commanders is great because it should (in theory) press the point home to Relic.

2) I am a big fan of constructive criticism and voting with your wallet; if you feel strongly against something then by all means boycott it and encourage like-minded friends to do the same, but equally I would ask those people to stop posting about the same issue over and over... and over. It's great that people wish to take a stand against a concept they disagree with - and I know from discussions over at RN that a lot of CE owners felt somewhat betrayed, though let's not beat that dead horse again - but it's important to do so in a polite, balanced way. Most of us have managed to do that, but obviously a few people haven't and so I just wanted to reiterate that point.

That said, my greatest wish is for modding (with or without Steam Workshop support) to be re-enabled ASAP, so I can re-design some of these commanders and cut out the rubbish.

(Incidentally, be very careful about accusing Relic devs of lying unless you have clear proof that they have).

Cheers guys!

Just wanted to chip in by saying:

1) Whilst it is clear that Relic need to make money from selling DLC, and I think most of us here would accept and agree with that in a broad sense, I am in general agreement with the negative feedback to Elite Troops and Industry, and I hope that it's something Relic will learn from. The concept of pre-vetted 'God units' does not belong in a game which wishes to promote itself as a balanced and competitive RTS. It's a dangerous road to go down, and the fact that competitions like SNF ban those commanders is great because it should (in theory) press the point home to Relic.

2) I am a big fan of constructive criticism and voting with your wallet; if you feel strongly against something then by all means boycott it and encourage like-minded friends to do the same, but equally I would ask those people to stop posting about the same issue over and over... and over. It's great that people wish to take a stand against a concept they disagree with - and I know from discussions over at RN that a lot of CE owners felt somewhat betrayed, though let's not beat that dead horse again - but it's important to do so in a polite, balanced way. Most of us have managed to do that, but obviously a few people haven't and so I just wanted to reiterate that point.

That said, my greatest wish is for modding (with or without Steam Workshop support) to be re-enabled ASAP, so I can re-design some of these commanders and cut out the rubbish.

(Incidentally, be very careful about accusing Relic devs of lying unless you have clear proof that they have).

Cheers guys!

+1

(Incidentally, be very careful about accusing Relic devs of lying unless you have clear proof that they have).

If they truly lied would depend on everyone's concept of P2W.

For me, those new commanders are P2W, as they give extremely advantageous units and abilities to those who paid for them, and thus Relic didn't stay true to their claim that they woulnd't release P2W DLC.

I don't have any issues with relic implementing commanders like the partisan, Luftwaffe, counterattack, and ostruppen doctrine. Those were balanced at launch and added variety to the game. Mechanzied assualt was fixed right away. Industry was purely just badly designed and elite troops, well should just be removed from the game.

I think vetting your troops was an awful idea in general and the tiger ace was badly designed. They delayed the future commanders because they most likely are going to balance it out. Also stefan haines finally stopped acting like a delusional prick towards people giving feedback (cough cough overwhelming armor).


What this game really needs is a map contest.

So a doctrine that makes you lose within 5 minutes of selecting it is more op than the 4 best axis early game abilities in the game plus the opportunity to call in the swag tiger if you so choose?

I said "more". They are both OP as hell.

I'm sorry to pursue this off topic remark but was there a change to su85s that I didn't see or when was the range increased? Are these beta changes?

With that statement I meant: Su85 have longer range than Panthers. Which is bullshit. Compare Zeiss optics with optics that have air bubbles. Guess who could shoot further with more precision.

Also how was my commentary off topic? What I was trying to say is that an ace would be much more harder for Germans to counter as they don´t have: Ram, spammable mines, button, mark target and more range on their StuG. All combined, nice solutions to cripple the Tiger Ace. I´m not saying the Tiger ace is balanced, but a Russian ace would be over the top ridiculous and bullshit. Yes, even more than a Tiger ace.

With that statement I meant: Su85 have longer range than Panthers. Which is bullshit. Compare Zeiss optics with optics that have air bubbles. Guess who could shoot further with more precision.

Also how was my commentary off topic? What I was trying to say is that an ace would be much more harder for Germans to counter as they don´t have: Ram, spammable mines, button, mark target and more range on their StuG. All combined, nice solutions to cripple the Tiger Ace. I´m not saying the Tiger ace is balanced, but a Russian ace would be over the top ridiculous and bullshit. Yes, even more than a Tiger ace.

Because if that's the case then Soviets will have no reliable tank to kill a Panther unless they use doctrines which shouldn't be the case. Jessus christ, the damn speed of the panther and turret makes up for it's range, if you really want to outrange a panther then grab the spotting scrope. Plus the SU-85 only outranges significantly if it uses its cone sight ability which makes the SU-85 a turtle.

The Panther and the SU-85 are fine at the momment. If you want realism go play men of war, if this was realistic panthers would be killing much more tanks per death, but then again its a video game.

As for Tiger Ace, you really need to pray to Rng gods for those methods. But I agree, if soviet gets an equivalent, the ostheer is screwed if he doesn't have a good doctrinal tank. Unless you have target weak point or pshrecks at range, but either way they are probably screwed. If they would do that, it would probably be elite t34-85s, an elite is2 would be too overpowered.

As for Tiger Ace, you really need to pray to Rng gods for those methods. But I agree, if soviet gets an equivalent, the ostheer is screwed if he doesn't have a good doctrinal tank. Unless you have target weak point or pshrecks at range, but either way they are probably screwed. If they would do that, it would probably be elite t34-85s, an elite is2 would be too overpowered.

One of the things this game doesn't need is more super-units.

I hope eventually Tiger Ace will be swapped for a normal vet3 Tiger.
Commanders should give new abilities/weapons to existent units, like PPSH, G43, ambush, etc, instead of giving more and more new unbalanced units.

The ISU 152 is more than enough for the SU. They definately don't need another super-unit.

The ISU 152 is more than enough for the SU. They definately don't need another super-unit.

Soviets need tanks. Many medium non-doctrinal tanks, with some power. Like T34-85. German beasts need targets and now Soviets have only tank destroyers. T34-76 is not viable.
example
Su-85 is powerfull, but boring as hell.