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russian armor

The high health unit problem

15 Jan 2014, 16:24 PM
#21
avatar of KyleAkira

Posts: 410



I think they changed it cause of the Rifle vs Volks reason. I mean its not that hard to get into close range. And if for example you imply it into CoH2 you will have Grens>cons long range and Cons>Grens close range, but then again Cons have oorah, which I believe will make cons OP since they will be able to close in to Grens way too fast meaning the DPS output of Grens would be lower in the whole fight than that of Cons. But I agree the current state where you don`t know if you gonna win the fight or not even if you were in green cover from the start totally frustrates me. I suppose if they lower the armor of all units by 50% this would change somehow?


You can add a penalization to Oorah! (like Rangers and Brits had in coh1) in where, after that, they had movement and firing penalty. That means you can Ooray to reach the same cover as the grens but grens will keep wining after all.
16 Jan 2014, 14:32 PM
#22
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

in CoH1 a cover had a great factor on units because they were dying much faster with lower health units. Rifles crossing red cover were usually losing like 2-3 man in few secs, in CoH2 cons will lose maybe one guy and will reach enemy units.


This is true, in CoH2 the only 'low health' unit is Osttruppen. To give an idea on the health differences, if American Riflemen from CoH1 were 'grafted' into the game without changing anything, they'd be roughly on-par with Osttruppen!

Rifleman Health: 55
Osttruppen Health: 48
Everything Health: 80 (And yes, from Pioneers to Shock Troops, they all have 80 health)


It also looks like the armour system was simplified, and not in a good way. To elaborate, CoH1 had Infantry Armour, Soldier Armour, Elite Armour, etc. This allowed anything to be balanced against anything. Panzergrenadiers took extra damage from Engineers to balance the early game, on-par with Riflemen, despite Riflemen being extremely superior to Engineers. This made the game easier to balance because every unit could be adjusted vs other units. Without it, OF would have been an unsalvageable mess.
18 Jan 2014, 08:13 AM
#23
avatar of sir muffin

Posts: 531

what we need is an elite mod so the community can tweak the game to make it exactly like voch

we can call it coh1.5, and it'l be perfect
and on the day of its first playtest, unicorns will come into existence and anime will become real forever
18 Jan 2014, 09:53 AM
#24
avatar of GustavGans

Posts: 747

The problem is that the armor system is heavily affected by RNG, which is noticeable especially on units like Snipers and which causes fights to be unpredictable (Grenadiers vs Conscripts anyone?)

I am honestly full of bringing COH1 as example but at least you had a clear and understandable situation: rifles > volks short range and volks > rifles long range, and RNG had a minor impact on that specific matchup to a point where, after many years, we could easily generalize what I just wrote.

In COH2 I'm feeling it's totally random and out of player control, sometimes you see your troops in green cover getting charged by the enemy, who moves in red cover, gets into your cover and kills your units forcing you to retreat.

Other times you totally shred the enemy squad. It's simply incosistent and for this reason I am personally not liking it and I would much more prefer a system were units roles are a bit more defined and where RNG has way less impact on infantry combat.


I completely agree. The unpredictable outcome of infantry engagements is a serious issue that adds nothing but frustration to the game.
18 Jan 2014, 19:24 PM
#25
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8



I completely agree. The unpredictable outcome of infantry engagements is a serious issue that adds nothing but frustration to the game.

Unpredictable how?
Unit in better cover wins.
If not, unit with better weapon/armor wins.
If not, unit that hit with nade wins.
Rifles win over SMG at long range, loose at short range.
Scripts equal grenadiers in same cover, grenadiers got advantage in heavy cover when both squads are in one.

No rocket science here, no randomness.
18 Jan 2014, 20:20 PM
#26
avatar of xSakox

Posts: 18

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Jan 2014, 19:24 PMKatitof

Unpredictable how?
Unit in better cover wins.
If not, unit with better weapon/armor wins.
If not, unit that hit with nade wins.
Rifles win over SMG at long range, loose at short range.
Scripts equal grenadiers in same cover, grenadiers got advantage in heavy cover when both squads are in one.

No rocket science here, no randomness.


Except super one hitting random critical headshots....
18 Jan 2014, 21:17 PM
#27
avatar of IpKaiFung
Benefactor 115

Posts: 1708 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Jan 2014, 20:20 PMxSakox


Except super one hitting random critical headshots....


except those don't exist. what you are experiencing is when five shots from an enemy squad all hit the same man in a squad in quick succession.
20 Jan 2014, 13:38 PM
#28
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Jan 2014, 20:20 PMxSakox


Except super one hitting random critical headshots....


Those don't exist, see above.

Funny enough, they DID exist in vCoH for the longest time. The Luger used by the PaK crewman had a random 'headshot' crit that would insta-kill any infantryman it hit regardless of health. It was removed some time after OF came out.
21 Jan 2014, 20:30 PM
#29
avatar of sir muffin

Posts: 531

+100,000,000 for low infantry hp
22 Jan 2014, 02:55 AM
#30
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

Personally I think they should reintroduce the old Armour system. The current one relies too much on RNG, while the old one was more consistent.
8 Feb 2014, 11:34 AM
#31
avatar of Unshavenbackman

Posts: 680



The problem is that high health units are naturally much more friendly to lower-skilled players. As they require less micro, they are able to let less skilled players draw games out more than they would otherwise be able to, and sometimes even win against higher skilled players.


Basically all these high health units make the game less competitive.




-1
Having high and low-healthunits promotes different playstyles. Micro is just a part of the game, not the game in itself.
8 Feb 2014, 12:20 PM
#32
avatar of Le Wish
Patrion 14

Posts: 813 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jan 2014, 00:23 AMCieZ
Uhhh. Shocks have the same hp as all other infantry except snipers... it is their armor that makes them so resilient to small arms fire but they die to flames, mines, grenades, snipers and explosions just the same. Even nerfing health on tanks is a bad idea. Only thing wrong with heavy tanks is that they unlock too soon which makes not teching such a viable option. Push them back and teching will be important again. The game is in a pretty good state outside of 1 cp guards/shocks and such early heavy tanks.


Very much agree on the lack of tech. Each game now seems to just be a wait for callins. :/
8 Feb 2014, 12:36 PM
#33
avatar of herr anfsim

Posts: 247

I think this is one of the areas where COH2 distinguish itself from COH1, by having a more forgiving 'run and gun' style of gameplay, where positioning isnt all that important, thus focusing more on hardcounters and call ins, rather than actuall tactics and strategy.

In many ways, vCOH was a more intuitive game, in regards to infantrytactics, where I would find myself employing real world tactics, with COH2 I dont find that to be the case.
8 Feb 2014, 12:51 PM
#34
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8



Very much agree on the lack of tech. Each game now seems to just be a wait for callins. :/

Yep.
For germans Tigers are so good and easily affordable that its plain stupid to not go for them,
For soviets, default T3/T4 doesn't cut it, especially now that IS-2, T-34/85 perform so well and if you want to get them you need to forgo teching anyway to afford them.
10 Feb 2014, 22:23 PM
#35
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2742

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the effects of cover completely nullified when units are within a certain range of each other?

I seem to recall that cover modifiers don't apply to units at close range. Assuming that this is how it is, cover only really effectively applies for a very narrow window of time unless both sides are completely static and at range. (Which happens about never percent of the time.)

I think this is why Shocks are so pronounced in their effectiveness: they're always closing in and fighting at close quarters which reduces combat to a matter of who has the bigger stats. Shocks with their innate armor levels and close range weapons (that are more accurate while moving) are insurmountable by any means other than superior firepower.
10 Feb 2014, 22:24 PM
#36
avatar of IpKaiFung
Benefactor 115

Posts: 1708 | Subs: 2

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the effects of cover completely nullified when units are within a certain range of each other?


Yes, I believe it's at 10 distance units or less.
11 Feb 2014, 05:32 AM
#37
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

Shock Troops are also strong because of their 56% chance to deflect a shot, they're permanantly in-cover even while charging and negating other cover.
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