120mm and its uses.

ever since the viability of t34/85s, i have been trying out the guards commander with the 120mm and t34/85.

but my recent experience with it led me to realize that i am extremely inefficient with the 120mm. while it has an impressive animation and explosion impact, i can never use this thing to kill anything.

it seems that the 120mm is very slow and inaccurate compared to its lighter german cousin, apparently it is actually possible to push up mortar teams to counter the 120mm because they cannot output the same amount of accurate fire as the 84mm.

more often than not, 120mm shells miss by a mile, though compensated by having a slightly longer range. its setup and traverse is also slow as hell. while having a much bigger explosive impact, its lethality is not all that different from regular mortars and still need close/direct hits to kill. lastly, it has a hefty price cost.

so before i go on a rant on balance forums about its doctrinally locked, cost 400mp and yet loses to a 240mp, ubiquitous 84mm, i like think im the problem 1st such as the lack of skill and what not.

how do i actually use this to its best?

Use the barrage ability, better accuracy.

Use precision strike though it's costly.

I use it quite frequently, especially on semois and road to khrakov.
I usually just park it somwhere so I can access the barrage ability when needed.
I see it more as a long term investment, it takes a while until it gains vet but when it does it really pays off.

Bear in mind also that you get it without building T2, hence more fuel

Expensive, inaccurate and overnerfed. Better way is steal some Ost. mortar.

I find the best way to use it (contrary to a higher post) is to use the attack ground command rather than the barrage ability. The barrage takes a long time to recharge and to begin. The attack ground allows you to retarget quickly. If you do stick with the barrage make sure you use the attack ground command while the barrage is on cool down for new targets.

It's also map dependant, and dependant on your opponents play. If they are going all grens then it's probably best left to the side. If they have MG's and mortars go for it.

It's expensive and slow to fire, which means if you've gone tier 2 you have a more tactical option in the 82mm. Only go the 120mm over the 82mm if they are blobing heavily, camping, or building lots of bunkers.

If you go tier 1, then it's a great way to get a mortar without having to build tier 2.

Edit: Incrementally more useful in team games.

Expensive, inaccurate and overnerfed. Better way is steal some Ost. mortar.

that is what i thought too, ost mortar seems so much more effective, even much more consistent of hitting rifle infantry with their good rate of fire and accuracy. really devastates guards, penal and conscripts combo.

what does barrage actually do? increase rate of fire? how is it different from attack ground?

Barrage greatly improves the firerate and it might slightly increase the range of the mortar, but im not too sure on the range thing.

It really wants knocking back down to 360 MP.

It really wants knocking back down to 360 MP.

Yeah I agree, the cost increase combined with the overall nerf was a bit too much.

The price nerf was a bit much. When I was playing the 120 mm was one of the backbones of my composition. Timing the purchase of it is the most difficult part.

Once you figure out a safe timing window to buy it you need to be able to park it somewhere in relative safety and work on getting it up to vet. Once you gain access to the special ability it becomes a work horse.

For me the ability was best used offensively - timed with assaults. I would try to scout a bit and figure out where the AT guns and mg42's were (hint: most people don't move these often enough). Once you scout pull your scout back to safety while using your ability on the biggest threat to your assaulting army composition. Time your assault with the landing of the special ability. You should have a numerical and compositional advantage at that point on the map.

The mortar complements the SU 85 well. I personally really liked focusing on my range advantage as the soviets and playing defensive from a tactical standpoint.

... my recent experience with it led me to realize that i am extremely inefficient with the 120mm. while it has an impressive animation and explosion impact, i can never use this thing to kill anything.

You must have had it just idling in your mainbase then...

In my experience the 120 mm mortar is very strong and it has huge potential to wipe out entire squads in one hit. It forces your opponent to pay attention to his squads at all times - if he doesn't, the probability is pretty high for the squad to just simply disappear.

One of the most annoying maps to encounter this unit is on Semoskiy where the soviet player can just place it relatively close to their main base and it can barrage almost the whole center area of the map without being easily flanked. With the precision strike this thing becomes ridiculously effective.

It's the usual Relic over-nerf, sadly. I understand that the 120mm was very powerful (and thus very popular) but they combined the substantive nerf with a price increase; likewise Assault Grenadiers were given the same cost increase (280 > 320 MP) despite not being terribly effective and having no ability to scale past the early-mid game.

I'm all for putting both units back to their original cost, as the 120mm is no longer as effective as it was - no one's saying it isn't effective at all, though, and it does get better with veterancy - and Assault Grenadiers are a dubious investment for the aforementioned reasons.

I honestly don't think decent players would spam AGs if they went back to 280 MP, because after the initial early rush you'd end up with a number of quite expensive squads who have outlived their usefulness. You know you'd rather have LMG Grens or P-Grens by that point, and if you run into Shock Troops then your AGs instantly become obsolete anyway.

It is, sadly, one of the great Relic traditions... double-nerfing something by not only tweaking the unit in a (usually) sensible manner, but then also pulling the rug from under it with a price or CP hike. It's just one of those things.

EDIT: Incidentally, I'd also move 120mms and Mortar Half-tracks to 3CP; combined with the former's re-cost (360 MP) and existing nerfs, it'd balance them out fine.

How effective this unit is, depends greatly on how fast you achieve vet1 with it.
Once it gets Precision Strike, theres no support weapon who can stand it´s barrage or even Pios repairing vehicles.

It´s not a short time - inmediate counter shock unit. Its a long time invesment unit, specially useful in 2v2+

The thing with this unit is that you have to manage to know when you can filter the 120mm into your composition.

the 120mm has squad wipe potential, and have that powerful precision strike ability. If it's made to be any more accurate there would be too many german squads wiped out, hence an imbalance issue.

You seem to be underestimating the precision strike ability. It cost the same as a grenade, it's not as easy to dodge and it has a lot bigger AOE and damage than grenades.

You can wipe out unsuspecting squads capping from very long range with that ability, you can accurately wipe out a German mortar from ranges far beyond their range. Thus forcing the German player to re position every couple of seconds just because of the threat of precision strike. Meanwhile, the 120mm mortar can just re position when it's been fired upon or can respond with the more accurate ability while under fire, since it is able to take more hits than the German mortar. It's because of these reasons the 120mm is superior than the German Mortar.

The only thing that makes the 120mm mortar useless, is the Soviet 82mm mortar. The Soviet mortar is more accurate and their precision strike ability is just as powerful. Really, the 82mm precision strike does the same damage and AOE as the 120mm mortar, makes the 120mm useless in comparision except the longer range.

This mortar is useful in team games. Its huge radius will let you defend a couple of important points on map like fuel plus VP or even two VP's at same time. If you are lucky enough to drop a shell right in the middle of the crowd capturing the point (meaning the infantry doesn't move) the damage will be so nasty that the opponent will be forced to retreat before point is captured. If he stays he might lose like three squads to a single mortar. Not a bad deal for 440 mp investment. In such situations the mortar will vet up pretty fast.
The accuracy isn't great but splash damage is pretty high and it should shave off two or even three models.
This mortar does great damage to light vehicles. It destroys bunkers, resource cache or Opel truck with a single barrage. It works well with Trip Wire. Just place plenty of them all around the area in radius of mortar and it will begin auto fire on its own in case if you are microing somewhere else.
Have an mg or mines protecting your mortar. The crew is only 3 models, so never let the enemy get close to it. If you want to save it you should retreat it right away. Its huge radius will let you open fire at the enemy even from you base so you don't have to move it back and forth like othe units.
Before patch I used to have two of them on field in every game. My best score was 74 kills with both. Vet three of course by the end of every game.

the 120mm precision is actually stronger than the 82mm, though not by much. the 120mm does 200 damage with 9 AOE (the same stats as the german howitzer....) but the 82mm only does 160 damage. same range, same AOE. that means the 120mm with wipe squads more consistently with its precision, but even the 82mm can wipe squads easily.

...

The thing with this unit is that you have to manage to know when you can filter the 120mm into your composition.

Exactly. Too soon and you risk heavy punishment from FHT and likely the first P4. Too late and it won't be on the field long enough for it to really shine and cause serious MP damage. The price increase messed with the timing window a bit for me.

I typically liked it best after my first guard squad and before my first SU85 would roll out.

the 120mm precision is actually stronger than the 82mm, though not by much. the 120mm does 200 damage with 9 AOE (the same stats as the german howitzer....) but the 82mm only does 160 damage. same range, same AOE. that means the 120mm with wipe squads more consistently with its precision, but even the 82mm can wipe squads easily.

That explains why there doesn't seem to be a difference between the two precision strike abilities. Thanks for clearing that up, though it doesn't make a difference to what it does to an infantry squad.

Exactly. Too soon and you risk heavy punishment from FHT and likely the first P4. Too late and it won't be on the field long enough for it to really shine and cause serious MP damage. The price increase messed with the timing window a bit for me.

I typically liked it best after my first guard squad and before my first SU85 would roll out.

Actually it still would be a good late game unit, even with FHT and P4 on the field, some of the maps have so many narrow points, if you can defend it properly you won't have to worry about them. Also when an FHT or P4 do arrive, the FHT relys on crits to kill while the P4 is horribly inaccurate, so either of them will take a while to kill a 120mm mortar so the mortar can easily retreat. The real way to counter them is a well placed nebelwerfer barrage but, you don't normally see them in 1v1s.

The one hit ability would ruin the German ability to cap late game. Therefore, there would be less possibility of Germans harrassing your fuel, vps and cut offs. I've seen so many late games where Germans only have a few infantry squads left surviving because of the Soviet one hit wonders in all game modes.