Guard

PTRS has a chance of one-shotting a model (not a high chance, its about 5%?) and also makes the squad jump around if they miss (they toned this down a bit, it used to make them jump for days on end).

@JHeartless: Why do you feel that the Guards munitions are a problem? Considering those abilities, when spammed, allow the squad to take on pretty much the entire German arsenal of T1 and T2 (minus an MG42 with a spotter) is pretty amazing.

Let's just compare the unit to the Panzergrenadier:

-same MP cost
-same armor and hp per soldier
-6 Guards vs 4 Pgrens
-lower reinforce cost per soldier
-same nade with same cost

-default guard AI much weaker than default Pgren but has AT
-upgraded guard (60muni) AI weaker than default Pgren but has AT and CC for vehicles
-default guard AT weaker than upgraded Pgrens (120muni) and has slightly weaker AI
-upgraded guard (60muni) AT weaker than upgraded Pgrens (120muni) but has slightly better AI

Considering how you can't unequip your shreks after you buy them, I don't see how the German equivalent is light years ahead of Guards, especially considering Germans have to spend more ammo to even have AT on the squad and also more ammo spending overall as a faction (ie, losing out on opportunity cost - medic station even costs ammo).

Note that pretty much all the Guard doctrines have Mark Target - any more damage from their PTRS's can result in some serious bullshit.

I was curious about the PTRS damage vs infantry a while ago and I remember this from the stats page.

PTRS rifles have 5% accuracy up close, and 2.5% accuracy at long range. It's damage was I believe 35: strong enough to cause a death crit on a sniper, but not strong enough to 1-hit kill a grenadier. You'll need roughly 80 PTRS shots to kill a grenadier at max range, when the grenadier is out in the open.

Considering the rate of fire and the low accuracy of the PTRS, it's AI contribution is neglect able.

Guards are the rangers of COH2 essentially. They really shouldn't be used too much as AI although they can hold on their own. However, it's light AT support where they excel in.

If they had really good AI, that's what we call a broken unit.

They're boring units. Vs infantry they're meh, vs. microed T2 vehicles also meh. Only good for buttoning people who aren't paying attention. The guard nade is good, but also RNG city like every other explosive device in this game.

PTRS has a chance of one-shotting a model (not a high chance, its about 5%?) and also makes the squad jump around if they miss (they toned this down a bit, it used to make them jump for days on end).

@JHeartless: Why do you feel that the Guards munitions are a problem? Considering those abilities, when spammed, allow the squad to take on pretty much the entire German arsenal of T1 and T2 (minus an MG42 with a spotter) is pretty amazing.

Let's just compare the unit to the Panzergrenadier:

-same MP cost
-same armor and hp per soldier
-6 Guards vs 4 Pgrens
-lower reinforce cost per soldier
-same nade with same cost

-default guard AI much weaker than default Pgren but has AT
-upgraded guard (60muni) AI weaker than default Pgren but has AT and CC for vehicles
-default guard AT weaker than upgraded Pgrens (120muni) and has slightly weaker AI
-upgraded guard (60muni) AT weaker than upgraded Pgrens (120muni) but has slightly better AI

Considering how you can't unequip your shreks after you buy them, I don't see how the German equivalent is light years ahead of Guards, especially considering Germans have to spend more ammo to even have AT on the squad and also more ammo spending overall as a faction (ie, losing out on opportunity cost - medic station even costs ammo).

Note that pretty much all the Guard doctrines have Mark Target - any more damage from their PTRS's can result in some serious bullshit.

Becaue as slub said they are the only elite infantry thats meh..

Yes they can survive longer than pgrens. No they are not at all like rangers lol. They arent AT they are anti vehicle. Also rangers had better AI.

Having 6 models with 1.5 armor is good but it adds nothing to their combat effectivness as the last two are always the ptrs gunners. The least relic could have done was make the ptrs kill infantry well since it does 0 to real tanks.

Combat wise they truly are just vanilla grens. Thats pretty weak for 360 MP plus 145 plus muni. This is assuming you buttoned once threw one nade and got dp lmg. Then add to this mark vehicle and you just burned through a ton of muni.

On the dp lmg having better AI than pgrend with shreks. This is true only if they are in a garrison. Otherwise they roll around and do PT rather than aiming thier dp lmg half the time.

I would honestly prefer PTRS as a paid upgrade so they could put out slightly less AI than LMG 42 Grens by default. If there are no light vehicles Guards are just a manpower sink tbh. Its all about cost to performance to me and with hiw easy it is to cancel button i just dont see alot of value in it. 9/10 times i go guards motor i wont even build Guards. If i want decent AI i can go Penals and have scripts to AT nade and i always get better results barring of course a flameht. Thats the only time

Their job is really just to counter light vehicles (which they do pretty well) and add some supporting fire as well as button on medium tanks. Their high durability and acceptable AI damage only make them more efficient at their job because the high squad number and armor mean they survive both AoE weapons (flamers, explosions) as well as small arms (infantry, light vehicles, tanks) very well, which in turn means they can normally fill those functions longer than most other units would normally be able to stay on the field. Their grenade also plays into this, allowing them to fend off even anti infantry units like Panzer Grenadiers when the grenade is used well.
They are really a very versatile and durable package. Of course they do not completely excel at one task but this also isn't their job because if you'd want something to deal more damage to tanks you'd build an AT gun and place a few mines and if you'd want something to walk all over infantry you'd just get Shocks.

Countering infantry simply isn't their job and as elite infantry their job also isn't to make up more than 1 or 2 squads of your infantry force, or else it'd be main line infantry rather than elite infantry.

If you want them to reliably counter infantry, you'd have to accept tradeoffs in other areas. I'm definitely not against changes if many people are for some changes. However, I really doubt all people wanting them to be changed understand what they are asking for.

Changing them may very well decrease doctrinal light vehicle protection and AT support, may make other (AI) units like PTRS conscripts and Shocks (but also M3s, Maxims and many many more) less desirable compared to Guards. Similarly, any slight AI buff might still feel as being "not enough" simply because they still wouldn't dominate some units or other specialized units might still be more desirable. Changes to them might even ultimately create other problems people don't even think about yet (e.g. in the event of possible light vehicle buffs or nerfs to other units or abilities).

Their current situation is pretty solid. They definitely aren't the best unit for every job but they are pretty formidable at a lot of things.

PTRS has a chance of one-shotting a model (not a high chance, its about 5%?) and also makes the squad jump around if they miss (they toned this down a bit, it used to make them jump for days on end).

@JHeartless: Why do you feel that the Guards munitions are a problem? Considering those abilities, when spammed, allow the squad to take on pretty much the entire German arsenal of T1 and T2 (minus an MG42 with a spotter) is pretty amazing.

Let's just compare the unit to the Panzergrenadier:

-same MP cost
-same armor and hp per soldier
-6 Guards vs 4 Pgrens
-lower reinforce cost per soldier
-same nade with same cost

-default guard AI much weaker than default Pgren but has AT
-upgraded guard (60muni) AI weaker than default Pgren but has AT and CC for vehicles
-default guard AT weaker than upgraded Pgrens (120muni) and has slightly weaker AI
-upgraded guard (60muni) AT weaker than upgraded Pgrens (120muni) but has slightly better AI

Considering how you can't unequip your shreks after you buy them, I don't see how the German equivalent is light years ahead of Guards, especially considering Germans have to spend more ammo to even have AT on the squad and also more ammo spending overall as a faction (ie, losing out on opportunity cost - medic station even costs ammo).

Note that pretty much all the Guard doctrines have Mark Target - any more damage from their PTRS's can result in some serious bullshit.

Same grenade as prgens I think not could be wrong

Guards have become much stronger with their ability to hit the field faster. Their nades have an uncanny ability to gib squads

Unupgraded guards always beat unupgraded grens because their damage taken is spread over 6 men, which means the first man doesn't drop as quickly.

DP upgraded guards also do pretty well against LMG grens at long range. Grenades own LMG grens at close range. On the flip side, rifle nades own Guards.

I recently had a game where a P4 took on 2 guard squads at close range. The P4 had to back off because it was nearly dead from Guards fire alone. Granted, guards are not great AT, they do some damage to tanks, especially from side and back.

The criticism that they are too costly for what they provide is totally valid when you consider the net cost to button 1 vehicle and throw 1 grenade with 1 squad (for example). I do think they are suitable units that do offer strategic and tactical choices. I tend to prefer units with more "Shock" value (which means shocks, dur) because their impact on the game is potentially greater.

I think the DP cost could be reduced slightly. Button should be made to be more consistent, with a small reduction to time spent buttoned, and a small increase in range and perhaps a somewhat smaller cost.

i would prefer if PTRS was similar to vcoh bazookas, piss poor frontal penetration, effective only against rear armor.

Guards are fine

PzG and Shock Troops are too strong and need symetrical nerf. PzG and ST ripe all infantry in no time and destroy infantry combat as everybody love. This elite infantry is like KCH from CoH (Tier4), but hit the field in 5 minutes (on both side).

i honestly can't see a reason why guards are underpowered they seem overpowered to me(on a complete different world from ST)they are basically a medium AI unit a more-than-good AT unit they have the same stats as pzg i think but are 6 come out already with ATguns at cost of no munis and can be upgraded with dp that unlocks a powerful AT ability and moreover increases AI effectiveness...what did i miss ah yes mighty bundlenade.
yes they truly need a buff in this state they can't go toe to toe with panther or tiger on their own...

I recently had a game where a P4 took on 2 guard squads at close range. The P4 had to back off because it was nearly dead from Guards fire alone. Granted, guards are not great AT, they do some damage to tanks, especially from side and back.

The criticism that they are too costly for what they provide is totally valid when you consider the net cost to button 1 vehicle and throw 1 grenade with 1 squad (for example). I do think they are suitable units that do offer strategic and tactical choices. I tend to prefer units with more "Shock" value (which means shocks, dur) because their impact on the game is potentially greater.

I think the DP cost could be reduced slightly. Button should be made to be more consistent, with a small reduction to time spent buttoned, and a small increase in range and perhaps a somewhat smaller cost.

+ 1

Guards are fine

PzG and Shock Troops are too strong and need symetrical nerf. PzG and ST ripe all infantry in no time and destroy infantry combat as everybody love. This elite infantry is like KCH from CoH (Tier4), but hit the field in 5 minutes (on both side).

I keep seeing people compare things to KCH, I just want to say that there is no unit in the game like KCH from CoH1. KCH had enough health to survive 2 Sniper shots, no unit in CoH2 or even CoH1 (save for Brit officers) can do that. Panzergrenadiers are more like watered down Assault Grenadiers. Just be thankful we don't have CoH1 Stormtroopers with 2 StG upgrades! Those guys would walk over anything, I feel they'd even walk over Shock Troops if we had 'em...

Don't forget that guards are one of the few units that did not get nerfed/ buffed. They were created as anti light vehicle infantry and they were great in this role until recent nerf to Scout Car. Nowadays, we almost never see scout cars on the field unless OH players are trying to bate Soviets into guards doctrine and then go super heavy on elite infantry and drain their man power dead dry. No light vehicles - no need in Guards anymore.
Yes, there is button ability which is great in my opinion,but as we know it doesn't work well sometimes.
DP 28 plus Button plus Mark the Vehicle plus SU85/ ZiS3 is an awesome combo but it costs tons tons of muni which is simply not always available all at once.
My favorite doctrine is one with Ppsh and hit the dirt but I almost never call in Guards unless my team owns both muni points. I would rather opt out for more mines to inflict engine damage than draining all my muni in an attempt to kill a tank.

guards are quite meh, mediocre AI power, piss poor AT power. however, they provide staying power with that 1.5 armour and 6 man team which sometimes is very welcoming in a fight and they have a decent grenade ability.

but because of their late arrival, many anti infantry indirect weapons are already in the field. rifle nades and mortars are bloody darn effective against them. on top of that, dp28 forces them to stop moving and fire, which cuts their mobility by a whole lot else they do not do any effective fire at all, as when on the move, only 2 mosins are firing, the dp and ptrs are deadweight. even with all guns firing, ptrs are dead weights, the performance of dp28 can barely justify its cost.

so this 'mehish' AI and even poorer AT unit is probably for their button ability which places guards a less than desirable support unit, rather than an elite fire team that comes in packing with much needed firepower such as bren gunners in vcoh.

so what can we do with this? honestly, the horrible performance of dp28s could do with abit of buffing. for a unit that is 360mp and 60munitions, they can do with more dps after upgraded.

Reduce cost of DP28 to 45. Reduce number of DP to 1 but increase the effectiveness of the weapon to scale similarly to 2 DP28 minus the damage the mosin on the other guard may add.

For me the whole unit is fine, problem comes when at 4 man you start to keep dropping weapons.

Just make the DP-28 able to fire on the move but with reduced accuracy like the vCOH BAR and I'll be happy.

Reduce cost of DP28 to 45. Reduce number of DP to 1 but increase the effectiveness of the weapon to scale similarly to 2 DP28 minus the damage the mosin on the other guard may add.

I like the idea. If relic also addressed the issue with the unit jumping around all the time and not being able to fire both the ptrs and dp28, this would be a rather good change. They could do with a tad higher penetration than 80.

I had someone trying to button my p4 with guards today and they didn't fire a single ptrs shot because they were moving in on the tank and running around (zis got in 1 hit though).