Shocktroops at 1CP
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edit. plus there is no single reason why to get Penals now. Shocktroops outclass them in everyway even if they are a little bit more expensive.
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Shocks are a bit too potent a 1 cp, mostly because they come out before any real counters, which are mostly vehicles. There is no reason to tie guards into the shocks issue. Guards fine right now.
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Guards are fine at 1cp. They aren't as effective as shocks and can be handled with upgraded grens and mgs. They need to be out before the vehicles to effectively counter them which they sometimes didn't in the old vet.
Shocks are a bit too potent a 1 cp, mostly because they come out before any real counters, which are mostly vehicles. There is no reason to tie guards into the shocks issue. Guards fine right now.
no. Guards also need to be moved back to 2CP. yesterday i played against 1 soviet player with sniper, M3 car, and 2 Guards. My MG42 and grens were shot down by soviet snipers quickly and early Elite Guards troops hard countered my Grens using their powerful grenades. then what can i do ? build a 222 SC ? OMG no... as you know ,2 Guards can kill 222 in 1 sec! Early Elite Guards kill the game balance too as early Elite Shock troops do...
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Mg42 should be the main counter to shocks, with the flamer pios, but you need 2 mgs to counter one unit of shocks. Plus flamers are unreliable because of spontaneous combustion. The game really feels like shocks aren't meant to come so early.
NO? Elite infantry shouldn't be stopped cold at a regular basis by HMGs. Just imagine if that was Applied to the Maxim..
edit. plus there is no single reason why to get Penals now. Shocktroops outclass them in everyway even if they are a little bit more expensive.
There's deinately one good reason: merging. It means low reinf cost with no performance drop. You can't do the same with shocks.
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NO? Elite infantry shouldn't be stopped cold at a regular basis by HMGs. Just imagine if that was Applied to the Maxim..
It already does apply to the Maxim though. Panzergrenadiers are as elite as German Infantry gets, and they hit the dirt half-way through the first Maxim burst. Tell me why Soviet Infantry should get a pass on the Ost's (technically superior) MG?
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It already does apply to the Maxim though. Panzergrenadiers are as elite as German Infantry gets, and they hit the dirt half-way through the first Maxim burst. Tell me why Soviet Infantry should get a pass on the Ost's (technically superior) MG?
OMG, flank Maxim. His cone of fure is small.
Shock Troops are the best infantry. Need commander. Cost 440MP and have no AT option. I simply ask, why i cannot fight with T34 in the same way as with Panther?
OST can have PzG in the same time as ST and dont matter on commander. If you have good micro, you can fight 1on1 with using bundled grenades.
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If anything the points are reversed. If a Panzergrenadier squad is suppressed by Maxim fire, you can either try to crawl away or retreat. If a Shock Troop squad is hit by MG 42 fire, they can pop a smoke grenade, walk out, and go around to kill 'em if the gun isn't supported (or hell, maybe it is, not like those Osttruppen or Grenadiers are gonna stop those Shocks, at least not before they can kill the MG).
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So because Shocks are special (they're not, they come with like 5 commanders), they should be infallible? Shocks already have good guns, smoke grenades, grenades (way better than Ost grenades), and a 2.25 armour rating (highest infantry armour in the game). They don't need the ability to walk through machine gun fire and wipe out the crew.
If anything the points are reversed. If a Panzergrenadier squad is suppressed by Maxim fire, you can either try to crawl away or retreat. If a Shock Troop squad is hit by MG 42 fire, they can pop a smoke grenade, walk out, and go around to kill 'em if the gun isn't supported (or hell, maybe it is, not like those Osttruppen or Grenadiers are gonna stop those Shocks, at least not before they can kill the MG).
You want defeat 440MP with 240MP? I you use MG42 and PzG (or sniper), you win everytime.
In your logic i want my Zis-3 win everytime versus panther.
OMG people. This is one hardes game ever. I play many times, but offten i still play as newbie. Micro, right units and timing abbilities. You must learn this game years, before you can be good. I am not, but hard work on it.
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You want defeat 440MP with 240MP? I you use MG42 and PzG (or sniper), you win everytime.
In your logic i want my Zis-3 win everytime versus panther.
OMG people. This is one hardes game ever. I play many times, but offten i still play as newbie. Micro, right units and timing abbilities. You must learn this game years, before you can be good. I am not, but hard work on it.
If you choose to run the 440MP right into the kill zone of the 240MP, sure.
Cost doesn't mean it's automatically good at everything, it's expensive because of how you use it that makes it effective. You can't just buy an Ost Sniper and run him into a group of Conscripts, he'll get his head shot off.
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NO? Elite infantry shouldn't be stopped cold at a regular basis by HMGs. Just imagine if that was Applied to the Maxim..
So what is the primary early game counter to shocks in your opinion then?
I know what you're going to say; vehicles, but there are barely any sensible vehicles available at 1cp. Smoke grenade is just another get me out of the jail free card stupid ability which should be removed.
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It already does apply to the Maxim though. Panzergrenadiers are as elite as German Infantry gets, and they hit the dirt half-way through the first Maxim burst. Tell me why Soviet Infantry should get a pass on the Ost's (technically superior) MG?
That's supposing you are rght, but I don't think you are. In my experience the Maxim does not have that absolute power over the Pgrens.
Oh, and Pgrens are not 440 MP.
So what is the primary early game counter to shocks in your opinion then?
I know what you're going to say; vehicles, but there are barely any sensible vehicles available at 1cp. Smoke grenade is just another get me out of the jail free card stupid ability which should be removed.
Actually no. Vehicles won't do. Aradan allready gave the answer: to counter a 440 mp unit, you - naturally - must expect to use more than 240 mp if you want to stop it cold.
It mostly means MG+gren or some such.
But there are often also other options. Like stalling or a fighting withdrawal. The point of that is to inflict losses on he ST. Remember that his replacements are expensive. Focusing only on ways to totally eliminate a unit may not always be a good idea.
Free tip for a partial, free solution: wire! (it is so underused)
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