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Shocktroops at 1CP

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21 Dec 2013, 19:02 PM
#101
avatar of James Hale

Posts: 574

Technically two Grens can beat a Shock, but it would require some lucky rifle 'nades.
21 Dec 2013, 19:39 PM
#102
avatar of Appleseed

Posts: 622

actually i find 2 pgrens can beat 2 shocks most time just depend on who stop and fire first... only thing i don't like though is shocks take less resource to reinforce than pgrens, because shock's 2.25 armor is hard for other infantry to take them out quickly
21 Dec 2013, 22:21 PM
#103
avatar of akula

Posts: 589

I hate 1cp shocks, especially in team games. Please fix Relic!
23 Dec 2013, 00:56 AM
#104
avatar of Ztormi

Posts: 249

After playing many games against and with the early shocks I conclude that shocktroops would be pretty much fine as a 1cp unit but smoke grenade really messes everything up. Mg42 should be the main counter to shocks, with the flamer pios, but you need 2 mgs to counter one unit of shocks. Plus flamers are unreliable because of spontaneous combustion. The game really feels like shocks aren't meant to come so early.

edit. plus there is no single reason why to get Penals now. Shocktroops outclass them in everyway even if they are a little bit more expensive.
23 Dec 2013, 01:21 AM
#105
avatar of Kronosaur0s

Posts: 1701

Seriously Shocks at 1CP is really silly, 2CP should do the trick but 1...come on, they just wipe out everything, even MGs with their smoke...
23 Dec 2013, 01:50 AM
#106
avatar of atouba

Posts: 482

Sovietfun players just dont want to accept the fact that Shock troops are really an OP unit now. with the cheap smoke grenade and 2.25 armo, ST can easily destroy early Ostheer units and rape them...
23 Dec 2013, 01:51 AM
#107
avatar of atouba

Posts: 482

ST and Guards should be moved back to 2CP as they were. relic pls do sth to save the game!
23 Dec 2013, 04:38 AM
#108
avatar of Omega_Warrior

Posts: 2561

Guards are fine at 1cp. They aren't as effective as shocks and can be handled with upgraded grens and mgs. They need to be out before the vehicles to effectively counter them which they sometimes didn't in the old vet.

Shocks are a bit too potent a 1 cp, mostly because they come out before any real counters, which are mostly vehicles. There is no reason to tie guards into the shocks issue. Guards fine right now.
23 Dec 2013, 05:19 AM
#109
avatar of atouba

Posts: 482

Guards are fine at 1cp. They aren't as effective as shocks and can be handled with upgraded grens and mgs. They need to be out before the vehicles to effectively counter them which they sometimes didn't in the old vet.

Shocks are a bit too potent a 1 cp, mostly because they come out before any real counters, which are mostly vehicles. There is no reason to tie guards into the shocks issue. Guards fine right now.


no. Guards also need to be moved back to 2CP. yesterday i played against 1 soviet player with sniper, M3 car, and 2 Guards. My MG42 and grens were shot down by soviet snipers quickly and early Elite Guards troops hard countered my Grens using their powerful grenades. then what can i do ? build a 222 SC ? OMG no... as you know ,2 Guards can kill 222 in 1 sec! Early Elite Guards kill the game balance too as early Elite Shock troops do...
23 Dec 2013, 08:01 AM
#110
avatar of Le Wish
Patrion 14

Posts: 813 | Subs: 1

Havent tried early guards, but I have played both with and against early shocktroops. When used in teamgames they are better off at 2 cps honestly.
23 Dec 2013, 08:56 AM
#111
avatar of link0

Posts: 337

High level 1v1 Replays of Guards or Shocks being OP at 1cp anyone?
23 Dec 2013, 10:29 AM
#112
avatar of SgtBulldog

Posts: 688

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Dec 2013, 00:56 AMZtormi
Mg42 should be the main counter to shocks, with the flamer pios, but you need 2 mgs to counter one unit of shocks. Plus flamers are unreliable because of spontaneous combustion. The game really feels like shocks aren't meant to come so early.

NO? Elite infantry shouldn't be stopped cold at a regular basis by HMGs. Just imagine if that was Applied to the Maxim..


edit. plus there is no single reason why to get Penals now. Shocktroops outclass them in everyway even if they are a little bit more expensive.


There's deinately one good reason: merging. It means low reinf cost with no performance drop. You can't do the same with shocks.
23 Dec 2013, 10:39 AM
#113
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

NO? Elite infantry shouldn't be stopped cold at a regular basis by HMGs. Just imagine if that was Applied to the Maxim..


It already does apply to the Maxim though. Panzergrenadiers are as elite as German Infantry gets, and they hit the dirt half-way through the first Maxim burst. Tell me why Soviet Infantry should get a pass on the Ost's (technically superior) MG?
23 Dec 2013, 10:56 AM
#114
avatar of Aradan

Posts: 1003



It already does apply to the Maxim though. Panzergrenadiers are as elite as German Infantry gets, and they hit the dirt half-way through the first Maxim burst. Tell me why Soviet Infantry should get a pass on the Ost's (technically superior) MG?


OMG, flank Maxim. His cone of fure is small.

Shock Troops are the best infantry. Need commander. Cost 440MP and have no AT option. I simply ask, why i cannot fight with T34 in the same way as with Panther?

OST can have PzG in the same time as ST and dont matter on commander. If you have good micro, you can fight 1on1 with using bundled grenades.
23 Dec 2013, 11:51 AM
#115
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

So because Shocks are special (they're not, they come with like 5 commanders), they should be infallible? Shocks already have good guns, smoke grenades, grenades (way better than Ost grenades), and a 2.25 armour rating (highest infantry armour in the game). They don't need the ability to walk through machine gun fire and wipe out the crew.

If anything the points are reversed. If a Panzergrenadier squad is suppressed by Maxim fire, you can either try to crawl away or retreat. If a Shock Troop squad is hit by MG 42 fire, they can pop a smoke grenade, walk out, and go around to kill 'em if the gun isn't supported (or hell, maybe it is, not like those Osttruppen or Grenadiers are gonna stop those Shocks, at least not before they can kill the MG).
23 Dec 2013, 12:10 PM
#116
avatar of Aradan

Posts: 1003

So because Shocks are special (they're not, they come with like 5 commanders), they should be infallible? Shocks already have good guns, smoke grenades, grenades (way better than Ost grenades), and a 2.25 armour rating (highest infantry armour in the game). They don't need the ability to walk through machine gun fire and wipe out the crew.

If anything the points are reversed. If a Panzergrenadier squad is suppressed by Maxim fire, you can either try to crawl away or retreat. If a Shock Troop squad is hit by MG 42 fire, they can pop a smoke grenade, walk out, and go around to kill 'em if the gun isn't supported (or hell, maybe it is, not like those Osttruppen or Grenadiers are gonna stop those Shocks, at least not before they can kill the MG).


You want defeat 440MP with 240MP? I you use MG42 and PzG (or sniper), you win everytime.

In your logic i want my Zis-3 win everytime versus panther.


OMG people. This is one hardes game ever. I play many times, but offten i still play as newbie. Micro, right units and timing abbilities. You must learn this game years, before you can be good. I am not, but hard work on it.
23 Dec 2013, 12:29 PM
#117
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Dec 2013, 12:10 PMAradan


You want defeat 440MP with 240MP? I you use MG42 and PzG (or sniper), you win everytime.

In your logic i want my Zis-3 win everytime versus panther.


OMG people. This is one hardes game ever. I play many times, but offten i still play as newbie. Micro, right units and timing abbilities. You must learn this game years, before you can be good. I am not, but hard work on it.


If you choose to run the 440MP right into the kill zone of the 240MP, sure.

Cost doesn't mean it's automatically good at everything, it's expensive because of how you use it that makes it effective. You can't just buy an Ost Sniper and run him into a group of Conscripts, he'll get his head shot off.
23 Dec 2013, 13:24 PM
#118
avatar of Ztormi

Posts: 249


NO? Elite infantry shouldn't be stopped cold at a regular basis by HMGs. Just imagine if that was Applied to the Maxim..



So what is the primary early game counter to shocks in your opinion then?
I know what you're going to say; vehicles, but there are barely any sensible vehicles available at 1cp. Smoke grenade is just another get me out of the jail free card stupid ability which should be removed.
23 Dec 2013, 14:00 PM
#119
avatar of TradeMrk

Posts: 95

I think a slight adjustment in cost for the smoke grenade might do the trick that way it is less spammable and the player really has to decide if they want to break that los.
23 Dec 2013, 14:48 PM
#120
avatar of SgtBulldog

Posts: 688



It already does apply to the Maxim though. Panzergrenadiers are as elite as German Infantry gets, and they hit the dirt half-way through the first Maxim burst. Tell me why Soviet Infantry should get a pass on the Ost's (technically superior) MG?


That's supposing you are rght, but I don't think you are. In my experience the Maxim does not have that absolute power over the Pgrens.

Oh, and Pgrens are not 440 MP.

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Dec 2013, 13:24 PMZtormi


So what is the primary early game counter to shocks in your opinion then?
I know what you're going to say; vehicles, but there are barely any sensible vehicles available at 1cp. Smoke grenade is just another get me out of the jail free card stupid ability which should be removed.


Actually no. Vehicles won't do. Aradan allready gave the answer: to counter a 440 mp unit, you - naturally - must expect to use more than 240 mp if you want to stop it cold.

It mostly means MG+gren or some such.

But there are often also other options. Like stalling or a fighting withdrawal. The point of that is to inflict losses on he ST. Remember that his replacements are expensive. Focusing only on ways to totally eliminate a unit may not always be a good idea.

Free tip for a partial, free solution: wire! (it is so underused)
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