"One-shot-wipe-potential"

First of let me explain what I mean with the topictitle:

It refers to the possibilities a faction has to kill enemy units in 1 single hit.

In games like CoH unit preservation is one of the most important aspects of winning a game. Mostly squads/units are lost due to a "sensory overload" by a player. This sensory overload means a player is in more simultaneous fights at one specific time than he can handle. This in turn causes him to overlook units in need of a retreat, and ultimately results in squadloss.

Generally speaking in CoH (especially in the early and midgame) causing your opponent to lose squads is the result of hard work. You keep trying to attack him from all directions at the same time, and this will hopefully result in him retreating one of his units too late resulting in the lovely "Enemy unit down" by the game commentator.

There are, however, exceptions to this rule. All those exceptions combined are what I refer to as the one-shot-wipe-potential of a faction (from now on Ill refer to it as OSWP).

If we look at the OSWP of the Germans vs the Soviets there are some glaring balance issues that need to be addressed. Now, before I proceed let me state clearly that I play both factions. I have absolutely no desire for any of the two factions to be stronger than the other. Now that I've got that out of the way let me point out why the Soviets are heavily advantaged over the Germans in regard to OSWP:

- Mines. Capable of one shotting a fresh, four man Panzergrenadier squad in one hit.
- Democharge. Capable of taking out an enemy squad in one hit. Sure, its 90 munitions, but I'd trade 90 munitions for a squadwipe any day of the week. Especially in the early to midgame.
- Precisionstrike. Both on the regular and 120mm mortar. Oneshots every squad that doesn't move for a bit.
- Heavy strafe. Even if you retreat right away when you see the flares you will more often than not have squads oneshotted on retreat. This can even take out damaged P4's.
- Guard grenades. Capable of stuff crazy stuff.
- Shock grenades. See above.
- IS2. Actually used in 1v1, and has a lot of OSWP.
- ISU-152. Actually used in 1v1, and has a lot of OSWP.
- Katushya Precisionstrike. Can snipe lone squads capping a flag at very high speed.

The German faction has pretty much non of this OSWP. Other than a lucky rifle grenade there is not much I can think of that one shot wipes. In my opinion stuff like this needs to be addressed because it's unavoidable damage. It takes away from the mechanic of causing sensory overload on your opponent, and getting profit from hard work. In my opinion one shot wipes need to be addressed, but I'm curious to hear what you guys think.

PS: If someone likes to point out German faction one shot wipes please do so for consistent OSWP-possibilities just as I did above. For instance, the german mortar oneshotting a conscriptsquad isnt a good example because it pretty much never does that.

Edit: Put in some more OSW-examples.
Edit2: Put in even more OSW-examples.

Since some people found it necessary to come into this topic and call me a German fanboy here is a link to my stats:
http://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561197972918936

First of let me explain what I mean with the topictitle:

It refers to the possibilities a faction has to kill enemy units in 1 single hit.

In games like CoH unit preservation is one of the most important aspects of winning a game. Mostly squads/units are lost due to a "sensory overload" by a player. This sensory overload means a player is in more simultaneous fights at one specific time than he can handle. This in turn causes him to overlook units in need of a retreat, and ultimately results in squadloss.

Generally speaking in CoH (especially in the early and midgame) causing your opponent to lose squads is the result of hard work. You keep trying to attack him from all directions at the same time, and this will hopefully result in him retreating one of his units too late resulting in the lovely "Enemy unit down" by the game commentator.

There are, however, exceptions to this rule. All those exceptions combined are what I refer to as the one-shot-wipe-potential of a faction (from now on Ill refer to it as OSWP).

If we look at the OSWP of the Germans vs the Soviets there are some glaring balance issues that need to be addressed. Now, before I proceed let me state clearly that I play both factions. I have absolutely no desire for any of the two factions to be stronger than the other. Now that I've got that out of the way let me point out why the Soviets are heavily advantaged over the Germans in regard to OSWP:

- Mines. Capable of one shotting a fresh, four man Panzergrenadier squad in one hit.
- Democharge. Capable of taking out an enemy squad in one hit. Sure, its 90 munitions, but I'd trade 90 munitions for a squadwipe any day of the week. Especially in the early to midgame.
- Precisionstrike. Both on the regular and 120mm mortar. Oneshots every squad that doesn't move for a bit.
- Heavy strafe. Even if you retreat right away when you see the flares you will more often than not have squads oneshotted on retreat. This can even take out damaged P4's.

The German faction has pretty much non of this OSWP. Other than a lucky rifle grenade there is not much I can think of that one shot wipes. In my opinion stuff like this needs to be addressed because it's unavoidable damage. It takes away from the mechanic of causing sensory overload on your opponent, and getting profit from hard work. In my opinion one shot wipes need to be addressed, but I'm curious to hear what you guys think.

PS: If someone likes to point out German faction one shot wipes please do so for consistent OSWP-possibilities just as I did above. For instance, the german mortar oneshotting a conscriptsquad isnt a good example because it pretty much never does that.

Absolutely agree.

I'm not sure but I think the Lefh 18 and the Brummbär have some OSWP

Railway Artillery
Four squads wipe:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXgLH6WV29g
Sector Artillery
Many squad wipes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xRqi2JC36k
Bundle Grenades etc

Thanks for the examples Joker. The analysis I did above is based on 1v1 play (and a bit of 2v2).

In 1v1 Railway Artillery is not seen a lot. Even if it is used it is very easily dodged. Also, it's a lategame ability. All in all it doesn't nearly have the impact of abilities I mentioned in my opening post.
Also I watched the link you posted and it's a very bad example: a random 2v2 where some inexperienced player bunches up all of his units and fails to relocate after the flares is very far from consistent 1v1 wipe potential.

The same really goes for Sector Artillery: not used a lot, easily dodged by leaving the sector (unlike Sturmovik attacks where you get one shotted even if you retreat right away). All in all not an ability with a lot of impact.

Bundle Grenades is not a good example cause that hardly ever wipes a squad (we're talking full health here).

@Gustav: thanks. The 2 units you mention are both lategame units. The brummbar is generally considered bad, and is hardly used. It very rarely one shot wipes. The howie is, of course, good but again: lategame and hardly ever seen in 1v1.

Thanks for the examples Joker. The analysis I did above is based on 1v1 play (and a bit of 2v2).

In 1v1 Railway Artillery is not seen a lot. Even if it is used it is very easily dodged. Also, it's a lategame ability. All in all it doesn't nearly have the impact of the of the abilities I mentioned in my opening post.

The same really goes for Sector Artillery: not used a lot, easily dodged by leaving the sector (unlike Sturmovik attacks where you get one shotted even if you retreat right away). All in all not an ability with a lot of impact.

Bundle Grenades is not a good example cause that hardly ever wipes a squad (we're talking full health here).

@Gustav: thanks. The 2 units you mention are both lategame units. The brummbar is generally considered bad, and is hardly used. It very rarely one shot wipes. The howie is, of course, good but again: lategame and hardly ever seen in 1v1.

Talking from actual experience had squad wipes from railway,sector and had 2 or 3 squad wipes from bundle grenades(infantry was stacked up I think) and I'm sure you underestimate the Brummbar...Panther+Brummbar is especially very hard to counter...

Talking from actual experience had squad wipes from railway,sector and had 2 or 3 squad wipes from bundle grenades(infantry was stacked up I think) and I'm sure you underestimate the Brummbar...Panther+Brummbar is especially very hard to counter...

In top 100 play the units you mention here are hardly ever used Joker. Also I am not interested in "I once in a 1000 games had a squad wipe to a bundle grenade"-comments. Bundle grenades simply don't wipe out full health squads consistently, they just don't.

Im ok with AP specialist armor, such as ISUs and Brummbars one shotting whole squads.

I think IS2 and Tiger AoE AP could be reduced a bit.
Mines are a factor of unit dispersal. Im ok with Sov Mine, but Im not ok with Ost minefield
-The signs need to go.
-They need to be single place for 20 Muni.
-They may also need a wider, but less dmg, AoE to compensate for numerically larger and hence more dispersed Sov infantry units. Less model kills, more general spread dmg.
Democharge Im ok with. I do however propose that Pios can:
-Boobytrap: For 80 Muni Pios rig a building to collapse when anything (including Ost) enters it. Cheaper because its building specific and also denies your own use of the building.

120mm is still somewhat problematic, but I think its largely ok, due to the danger of friendly hits. Infact as far as nonvetted Mortars go, I think 81mm fires too fast. Needs a slower initial rate, and instead a better Counter Barrage.

Precision Strike on Mortar absolutely needs a nerf/change. Its a long range blind nuke.
It needs some kind of indicator. Smoke indicator wouldnt make much sense in terms of immersion, so I propose it instead places a second clock indicator on the impact point, in the same way Grenades do. This way atleast if you are watching your units, you will have a margin for dodging it.

As to IL2 Strafe, I have it on good authority its being considered, but it didnt sound too promising. Relic seems to think it should, at cost, have the potential for 3 Gren wipes. It seems that applying a reduced effect modifier per entity has been suggested, which would be similar to MG42s entity dependance, so it is less likely to wipe depleted squads. I propose that its runs are reduced to 1-2. Apparently that too however had been suggestedand discarded, on the premise that if it makes more runs, AA has a better chance tonshoot it down. I find that to be convoluted logic. Just make it deliver its current run dmg, once or twice.

Edited to add: IL2 Its a very complicated issue, because strafes are in a world of their own when it comes to balance. So many more fsctors than in conventional landbased effects. Im generaloy ok with its target radius. Im generally also ok with its dmg per run. I am not ok however with how long it circles that area, with how many runs it makes, and I think most importantly, it arrives a few seconds too early. I ultimately propose reduxing it to 2 runs and also increasing the time to its arrival by a few seconds.

Further edited to add: Railway is the easiest offmap to avoid. Not only is there a long delay till the first shot lands from when the indicator appears, there is another enormous delay to the second. And the accuracy is absolutely random. Seriously, you have to have the micro of a snail to not get out even before the first shot lands.

Sector Arty imo, needs a nerf. Ost needs offmaps to soften positions and support assaults but this one has too fast a rate of fire considering the enormous area it is viable in. However, now that I think of it, reducing rate of fire, would just prolong the duration, which has the sideffect of longer area control. Inlight of, its probably better to reduce the amount of shots. Short, concentrated fire. I havent had enough experience with it to judge how much time there is to evacuate the sector, but ideally it should be so that a setup team can atleast desetup and begin moving beforenthe first shot lands.

Yeah sometimes bundled nades take out an entire shock squad because they tend to all huddle up in cover (if youve not kept them moving).


You forgot about the IS2


Its a valid point, but I do believe the designers wanted units to be more fragile than in coh1.. it was almost too easy to keep many many squads alive in coh1, if your micro was there.


Also look at high level games, the Ost players dont seem to have trouble keeping a large army alive. Its probably mostly about the situation you put those units in, if they are out of position against the wrong unit, you could get punished.

there's plenty of other potentially lethal abilities, katyusha precision strikes, all the howitzer and pretty much any late game indirect fire, guards nades have some wipe potential too.
germans have sector art, werfer vanilla strike has more potential than katyusha's vanilla one, light artillery if enemy is asleep.
I don't think it's so much of an issue with specific abilities, but a side of the 4/6 man squads asymmetrical balance.
While it's true that soviets have more chances to take down a full-models squad, it's also true that sov squads are less likely to be fully manned.
What I mean is that a 4 men cons squad, albeit needing more babysitting, will still remain in the field, and can go down to mortars/bundles/rnades as easily as a german squad.
mortar precision should work a bit like the zis barrage, plenty of very accurate and less deadly shots to give you time to react.
IL2 strafe is ridiculous and needs at least to have the first strafe delayed.
but anyway I think we all agree that if something has to be done balance-wise it's nerfing sov osw capabilities and not buffing german ones

Railway Artillery
Four squads wipe:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXgLH6WV29g

thats not the best example, because they were all on a slither of HP.

I think the main reason for squadwipes is the buggy unit movement and
OH Infantry seems to be more affected due to smaller squadsizes.

I can agree 100% with the OP. The OSWP is really prevalent in CoH2.

But a solution to this problem won't be easy. I don't think nerfing certain explosive weapons would do the trick, because they always end up ether to powerful or weak, depending purely on the spread of the shots and spread of the models in the squad.

There needs to be a mechanic similar to the old "5% bug". If a squad is at full health and steps on a mine for example a squad wipe is impossible to occur - one model will always survive with a sliver of health.

Or in other words: If you can't remove the RNG, give it at least boundaries.

I can agree 100% with the OP. The OSWP is really prevalent in CoH2.

But a solution to this problem won't be easy. I don't think nerfing certain explosive weapons would do the trick, because they always end up ether to powerful or weak, depending purely on the spread of the shots and spread of the models in the squad.

There needs to be a mechanic similar to the old "5% bug". If a squad is at full health and steps on a mine for example a squad wipe is impossible to occur - one model will always survive with a sliver of health.

Or in other words: If you can't remove the RNG, give it at least boundaries.

Don't you abolish squad wipes with this idea? I like it but there still should be a squad wipe, otherwise,mines and things like that are less viable because your opponent knows one model will survive it. Maybe a combination of RNG with the 5% thingy?

In top 100 play the units you mention here are hardly ever used Joker. Also I am not interested in "I once in a 1000 games had a squad wipe to a bundle grenade"-comments. Bundle grenades simply don't wipe out full health squads consistently, they just don't.

I thought we were talking about the average playerbase here...
Also the argument "Bundle grenades simply don't wipe out full health squads consistently" can apply to some abilities you gave example...
Mines for example don't wipe full health squads,in majority there remains 1 or 2 members in of a squad...

I thought we were talking about the average playerbase here...
Also the argument "Bundle grenades simply don't wipe out full health squads consistently" can apply to some abilities you gave example...
Mines for example don't wipe full health squads,in majority there remains 1 or 2 members in of a squad...

They actually do quite often kill full health Pgren squads. I've personally had this happen to me a lot, and I'm sure others recognize this too.

I think that rifle grenades should do a more "consistent" damage.
I'm tired of the RNG factor in that ability. It kills whole squads or it doesn't do shit.
Something in between would be better.

Also, 120mm mortar precision shoot should be removed or achieved at vet 2 or 3. The ability is fine in normal mortar, but in the 120mm with its long range is pretty OP.

And yes, german mines should be reworked. Currently they are stupid with that sign marking the place.

I can agree 100% with the OP. The OSWP is really prevalent in CoH2.

But a solution to this problem won't be easy. I don't think nerfing certain explosive weapons would do the trick, because they always end up ether to powerful or weak, depending purely on the spread of the shots and spread of the models in the squad.

There needs to be a mechanic similar to the old "5% bug". If a squad is at full health and steps on a mine for example a squad wipe is impossible to occur - one model will always survive with a sliver of health.

Or in other words: If you can't remove the RNG, give it at least boundaries.

Thanks for bringing some sense in this topic. Appreciate it.

The same really goes for Sector Artillery: not used a lot, easily dodged by leaving the sector (unlike Sturmovik attacks where you get one shotted even if you retreat right away). All in all not an ability with a lot of impact.

You underestimate the sector artillery. You can drop the smoke out of enemy LOS and it will still work on the entire sector. The only clue for the enemy will be the orange sector on the minimap, which is not something that you will see every in a split second every time. It's still rare to see this ability used though, despite it's power.

Other than that, there are indeed fewer OSWP options for the germans. That does not mean that there are no options at all. The most obvious one is the mighty Panzerwerfer. Even at max range this units has OSWP, at medium range it can one-shot multiple squads.

While the germans have less OSWP, they have options to quickly wipe squads when the opponent isn't paying full attention to the squad in question. For example, the rifle grenade, while not able to wipe full health squads, is a very powerful tool that can often lead to squad wipes in the later stages of the game where players can experience sensory overload. You can't see it coming on the minimap, you can't hear it coming either, and it can easily kill 4 models in cover. Combined with the firepower of the LMG42, it can quickly decimate a squad. I've killed many squads this way, and it's not something I can do as easily when I'm playing soviets.

Looking at the overall balance, while the squad wiping potential on paper is lower for the germans, I don't notice this in the actual game. While you would not expect it from a noob like me (remember our game the other day on Semoisky winter? You rude person!), I'm currently at rank 60 with both factions. From my experience in the actual game I don't have more difficulty wiping squads (or vehicles for that matter) with the germans than I do with the soviets.

2 things Aerohank:

- Sector Artillery and Panzerwerfer are pretty much unused in 1v1 (and for good reasons)
- The difference between hearing "poof" and seeing you just lost a full health Pgren squad to a 30 muni mine vs not paying attention during the long long time a riflenade takes to get fired and getting hit by that is night and day. Btw I like how you call a riflenade a "quick way" to get a squadwipe; riflenades are slow as fuck and you can see them coming from a mile away.

And as a little PS: if you have a problem with anything I said during a game keep it classy and send a pm instead of taking it to the public forums.

As stated above, soviets have the upper hand in terms of indirect fire and OSWP, but the thing is how this is reflected in actual gameplay.

I think alike to Aerohank. German units raw power make up for these imbalances and the result is somewhat balanced.