I was really pissed seing Barton lose that game, the 2 main issues to me are:
- M3s should always be killed by a faust, since they carry engineers they can be repaired and be back in the fight in a sec with no penalty right now.
- Mark target is just too good to be in that commander, and its cooldown is too short.
Other than that I don't really think any rational balance issue has been highlighted, yes, 7 t34/85s are strong, OMG!
Their price is right and it comes with the price of having to wait for 2x the resource of a single tank, while the opponent can force you off the map. Barton didn't exploit that and it lost him the game
Germans Anti tank capabilities.
9 Dec 2013, 16:07 PM
#21
15 
Posts: 786
9 Dec 2013, 16:18 PM
#22
Posts: 1162
The reason people are saying stugs are a good counter has nothing at all to do with their range, it's simply because they are cheaper.
You want multiple cheaper tanks with good damage vs vehicles, backed up by paks. That's cheaper than multiple 34/85s and will trump them.
Mark target it more of a waste on a stug, simply because of costs. Ram is also a waste.
Not to mention that paks AND stugs have the stun ability which will own 34/85s in their tracks.
You want multiple cheaper tanks with good damage vs vehicles, backed up by paks. That's cheaper than multiple 34/85s and will trump them.
Mark target it more of a waste on a stug, simply because of costs. Ram is also a waste.
Not to mention that paks AND stugs have the stun ability which will own 34/85s in their tracks.
9 Dec 2013, 16:27 PM
#23
Posts: 177
Jafooli, you are correct in noting that mass dedicated AT (stugs + paks)... will counter tanks.
But the thing is that the mark target ability makes a primarily AI tank (t34) overperform vs both p4s and stugs.
Even if you win (stugs and paks cant "follow" and finish the job) - you're just left with AT. The industry units however are good at both AI and AT duty. Which means gg vs support weapons and shocks/guards
And 85s aren't that bad vs inf either.
Maybe new patch will change the inf vs tank _cannon_ gameplay, but industry will still be able to bring out kv8 that negates t1 + t2 from germans entirely. You are relying vet 1 on pak or mines if you want any kind of chance vs the kv8.
But the thing is that the mark target ability makes a primarily AI tank (t34) overperform vs both p4s and stugs.
Even if you win (stugs and paks cant "follow" and finish the job) - you're just left with AT. The industry units however are good at both AI and AT duty. Which means gg vs support weapons and shocks/guards
And 85s aren't that bad vs inf either.
Maybe new patch will change the inf vs tank _cannon_ gameplay, but industry will still be able to bring out kv8 that negates t1 + t2 from germans entirely. You are relying vet 1 on pak or mines if you want any kind of chance vs the kv8.
"Don't say anything, he will just keep on doing it."
9 Dec 2013, 19:30 PM
#24
Posts: 337
Jafooli, you are correct in noting that mass dedicated AT (stugs + paks)... will counter tanks.
But the thing is that the mark target ability makes a primarily AI tank (t34) overperform vs both p4s and stugs.
Even if you win (stugs and paks cant "follow" and finish the job) - you're just left with AT. The industry units however are good at both AI and AT duty. Which means gg vs support weapons and shocks/guards
And 85s aren't that bad vs inf either.
Maybe new patch will change the inf vs tank _cannon_ gameplay, but industry will still be able to bring out kv8 that negates t1 + t2 from germans entirely. You are relying vet 1 on pak or mines if you want any kind of chance vs the kv8.
Actually, a T34/76 will still lose to a P4 with Mark Target.
A T34/85 owns a P4 even without Mark Target.
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9 Dec 2013, 19:39 PM
#25
Posts: 1162
And a stug could probably still beat an 85 if it gets the stun on it.
A large part of why 85s are so powerful is that they come in 2s which is a lot of tank. People need to learn they are coming and get adequate preparations. Similar to facing an Ace.
A large part of why 85s are so powerful is that they come in 2s which is a lot of tank. People need to learn they are coming and get adequate preparations. Similar to facing an Ace.
9 Dec 2013, 21:06 PM
#26
Posts: 184
You guys are forgetting that Bartone actually had a decent amount of AT when the first 85's hit the field, he had a P4, pak and shreks he also had a couple of mines down.
Granted, a couple of stugs and paks could do the job vs 85's but only in a defensive way. You cannot really push into their territory incase u get flanked.
I would like to hear Bartons view on this.
Granted, a couple of stugs and paks could do the job vs 85's but only in a defensive way. You cannot really push into their territory incase u get flanked.
I would like to hear Bartons view on this.
76561198005515393
9 Dec 2013, 21:26 PM
#27
Posts: 419
Yea I saw 2 shreks squads a p4 and a pak. The letdown is the shreks were of no help and the p4 and the pak just got overwhelmed. Ive haven't seen shreks earn their keep since the first week after beta. That is unless soviets, have it.
9 Dec 2013, 21:40 PM
#28
Posts: 1585 | Subs: 1
Yea I saw 2 shreks squads a p4 and a pak. The letdown is the shreks were of no help and the p4 and the pak just got overwhelmed. Ive haven't seen shreks earn their keep since the first week after beta. That is unless soviets, have it.
I wouldn't say that. Shreks are still very effective for Ost. It is true shreks in a shock squad are extremely scarey.
9 Dec 2013, 21:45 PM
#29
Posts: 1162
Shreks just seem to get smashed so easily. Not worth the munis, especially as they can be dropped and stolen. I'd rather spend munis on tellars and Have paks, with Faust handy to defend pak.
Your right about stugs and paks being defensive Blitz, but pretty much any 34/85 strat evolves around a weak early game, often getting pushed back to base, then 85s bringing you back into it.
Germans need to learn to set up defence once they are far up map. It should be screaming tellars high up ( just like fighting quick M8).
The hardest part of this game though is identifying what the soviet is doing when your German, because making the wrong teck decision can easily be catastrophic. This was easier in vcoh, due to less options. I think as people get more practised, it will start to happen more. Everything is still constantly evolving, not least because of new commanders.
Your right about stugs and paks being defensive Blitz, but pretty much any 34/85 strat evolves around a weak early game, often getting pushed back to base, then 85s bringing you back into it.
Germans need to learn to set up defence once they are far up map. It should be screaming tellars high up ( just like fighting quick M8).
The hardest part of this game though is identifying what the soviet is doing when your German, because making the wrong teck decision can easily be catastrophic. This was easier in vcoh, due to less options. I think as people get more practised, it will start to happen more. Everything is still constantly evolving, not least because of new commanders.
10 Dec 2013, 00:45 AM
#30
Posts: 1439
Are we talking about the game with 6 T-34/85 in it?
In my opinion Barton got outplayed in this one. People tend to forget that T-34/85 is almost like SU-85 but with turret. These Tigers never stud a chance.
In my opinion Barton got outplayed in this one. People tend to forget that T-34/85 is almost like SU-85 but with turret. These Tigers never stud a chance.
10 Dec 2013, 02:21 AM
#31
Posts: 184
LoL OZ, SU85 with turret. Not really mate, these things chew up inf as well. How do u suppose they are countered?
76561198005515393
10 Dec 2013, 02:41 AM
#32
Posts: 1439
LoL OZ, SU85 with turret. Not really mate, these things chew up inf as well. How do u suppose they are countered?
If I am not mistaken the gun was the same in real life and I think is the same in CoH2.
SU-85 have a bit higher penetration but T-34/85 got a turret? Not sure after the changes.
The point is however they are far better then T-34/76 especially after recent reload time decrease.
10 Dec 2013, 04:10 AM
#33
Posts: 971
Actually, a T34/76 will still lose to a P4 with Mark Target.
A T34/85 owns a P4 even without Mark Target.
Well, I've destroyed marked PzIVs with a T34 one-on-one.
But usually you are right, even with Mark Target, a PzIV facing a T34 will win.
Mark Target increases damage, but still T34 has problems to penetrate the PzIV's thick frontal armor. Deflecting a shot or two is enough for the PzIV to win the engagement.
10 Dec 2013, 07:04 AM
#34
Posts: 950 | Subs: 1
If I am not mistaken the gun was the same in real life and I think is the same in CoH2.
SU-85 have a bit higher penetration but T-34/85 got a turret? Not sure after the changes.
The point is however they are far better then T-34/76 especially after recent reload time decrease.
t34/85 shoots 2 seconds slower, has 2.5 times more AOE, 60 less pen, and 2.5 less distance scatter but 2.5 more angle scatter.
10 Dec 2013, 09:34 AM
#35
Posts: 1162
What people need to do is identify the 34/85 commanders in load, then if you notice a lack of T3, push them off the field as fast as you can, get tellars down, grab a stug or two to supplement your P4, have a pak, and have fausts handy.
If you know they might go 85s, don't go ostwind unless you intend to base rape with it, but safer just to go p4 and back with stugs.
I don't know about anybody else, but I'm going to have fearing armour as an option so that I can throw as pak43 down in this situation. I know from experience it's not nice to face with guard motor.
If you know they might go 85s, don't go ostwind unless you intend to base rape with it, but safer just to go p4 and back with stugs.
I don't know about anybody else, but I'm going to have fearing armour as an option so that I can throw as pak43 down in this situation. I know from experience it's not nice to face with guard motor.
10 Dec 2013, 10:25 AM
#36
Posts: 1439
t34/85 shoots 2 seconds slower, has 2.5 times more AOE, 60 less pen, and 2.5 less distance scatter but 2.5 more angle scatter.
Thank you Wooof. One can always count on you
10 Dec 2013, 10:51 AM
#37
Posts: 177
Actually, a T34/76 will still lose to a P4 with Mark Target.
A T34/85 owns a P4 even without Mark Target.
T34 can get lucky and win actually, I'm sure you have experienced it too. Either way the amount of HP you trade on the P4 is very good if you can finish it with another unit.
And you still left out the stug which is helpless with mark target on it, the only defining trait of the unit being it's good armor and MT denies that
"Don't say anything, he will just keep on doing it."
10 Dec 2013, 10:52 AM
#38
Posts: 177
And a stug could probably still beat an 85 if it gets the stun on it.
A large part of why 85s are so powerful is that they come in 2s which is a lot of tank. People need to learn they are coming and get adequate preparations. Similar to facing an Ace.
Stunning a moving tank isn't so easy. Stug turret tracking and the delay after using the ability makes sure of that (ready aim time).
You can't actually micro the stug to follow the tank better as giving orders after selecting the stun ability cancels it's use.
As for mark target, doesn't this adjust incoming penetration too? I'm confident it does
"Don't say anything, he will just keep on doing it."
10 Dec 2013, 11:24 AM
#39
Posts: 2425
Permanently Banned
As for mark target, doesn't this adjust incoming penetration too? I'm confident it does
Nope.
Its 50%dmg received increase and airplane tracking for 60s.
Just as general interestinf tidbits, it makes ATNades hit for 150 (30 more than syandard T34nshot) and also effects Ram, for a total of 240 dmg (which is 2 standard t34 shots).
Since Vet was changed from dmg reduction to better armor, its very powerful now on penetrating hits (whereas before Armor would soak penetrating shots with Vet and shrug off glancing shots as usual).
Thank you Wooof. One can always count on you
Yes, one can always count on Wooof. Unfortunately the same cannot be said of you. You really should spend some time looking over the actual stats of units.
10 Dec 2013, 11:42 AM
#40
Posts: 1439
Mark Target or not this game was like 6 or 7 T-34/85 against one Tiger at some point. T-34/85 is a beast now and you really can't expect to go 1-6 and still win even with a Tiger.
@ post above:
Why don't you go whine somewhere else and give me a break will ya?
You start attacking and insulting people as per usual and then you will say they attacked you first.
@ post above:
Why don't you go whine somewhere else and give me a break will ya?
You start attacking and insulting people as per usual and then you will say they attacked you first.
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