The Ostheer Problem

Let me start by saying I have no problem with soviet industry allowing users to be able to construct buildings or produce tanks incredibly fast. The issue here is the Ostheer's impractical arsenal in dealing with lots of light armor which has been highlighted by this new commander. This mainly being the high cost of anything munition related to counter vehicles. E.G 60 muni Tellers and 120 muni shreks. Furthermore the T-70 is currently too good for it's price.

SOLUTION 1: Give the Ostheer the 30 muni mine that the Russian's have so that way the Germans have a mine that can do both damage to tanks and infantry. To make it fair Russian should also be given a heavier mine like the Teller. Furthermore in it's current state I would like to point out that the 80 muni infantry mine field is very unpractical in 1v1s due to it's high cost and long build time. Not to mention the obvious warning signs that stick up at the edge of the field warning Soviet players that there is indeed a mine field here. A better solution to this would be making each square 20 munitions.

SOLUTION 2: Give Panzer Grenadiers the ability to upgrade 1 shrek at a time for either 60-75 munition each. This would enable Ostheer players to invest in a Teller mine as well to counter light vehicles.

SOLUTION 3: Give both sides universal tank traps like in vcoh days.

SOLUTION 4: Give Paks back their old cloaking ability from the vcoh days. This would make it much easier for Ostheer player to set up an ambush.

SOLUTION 5: If the changes to scatter do not make the T-70 more balanced in the next patch I suggest either a mixture or one of the following; increase the reloading time for the T-70, decrease the speed of the T-70, decrease the accuracy of the T-70. I would not suggest increasing the cost of this unit as this would mean seeing less of them during matches and as we know the Russians with their Soviet War Machine were all about quantity rather than the quality.

SOLUTION 6: In TOW the panzer grens from that period where able to upgrade anti-rifles. Why not reintroduce these weapons along side shreks? These weapons would be much cheaper but less powerful.

Constructive feedback appreciated, thanks for reading.

Always when i play vs sov ind it makes me hit/throw something/someone Hans try to play in beta vs sov ind. They claim its not op anymore but i think still is. Anyway.. Vet1 ability on paks is great but you have to get it there. Besides i find paks pretty useless vs t70s. Maybe they should be more reliable AT like in coh1...

Yes, we do need a final solution.

We require an ultimatum.

Yes, we do need a final solution.

+1

We require an ultimatum.

+1

Lemme throw a couple of facts into this thread:

1. A shreck squad in a building is impossible for a T-70 to kill and has the same range as a T-70, however it does miss from time to time, which is fair.

2. Recently T-70s have not been that strong as they've been in the past, i.e. Their health was decreased, they were more suceptible to get hit by at weapons, their health was reduced, panzerfausts seem to hit them all the time unlike before where it was easier to dodge, and the crush ability was also removed. Doing anything else to the T-70 will just make it a useless unit in the game because it wont be cost effective anymore. (Has a very short time window in which it's useful.)

3. There are multiple ways to take out a T-70 or T-70 horde, these include; fast p4 tech, teller mines, riegal mines, shrecks in a halftrack, dbl paks at a distance, keeping 1-2 shreck squads next to a halftrack and constantly reinforcing them, dbl 222s upgunned (cheaper than 2 shreck squads), and an mg when it's switched to AP rounds(works best in buildings since harder to kill). If you can't take them out maybe your opponents have a higher skill level than you.

THE GOLDEN SOLUTION: Adapt!

I'd be happy to provide replays in which I do this for anyone whining it's not possible.

As well as Andy having a 58 streak as the Ostheer is a great example of how the Ostheer can still win when someone uses Soviet Industry or T-70s.

Buff AT Gun movement speed and turn rate.

MG42 will be back in action soon.

In compensation for hordes of LMG-toting Grens owning it up with their on-again off-again on-again MG42 buddy, raise cost of LMG to 80 muni.

Plant your tellers.

Id like to see Ivan(sov ind/t70 spam) vs andy...

Always when i play vs sov ind it makes me hit/throw something/someone Hans try to play in beta vs sov ind. They claim its not op anymore but i think still is. Anyway.. Vet1 ability on paks is great but you have to get it there. Besides i find paks pretty useless vs t70s. Maybe they should be more reliable AT like in coh1...

The Pak vet 1 ability always seems to misfire for me whenever I use it. Have you had the same problem?

For the early game scenario Ostheer players have to gamble where to use their munitions. They could risk spending it on a flame-ht and do well at the start against hordes of conscripts but then when the T-70 roles out you have hardly any munitions to counter it. Now you could instead choose to save your munitions for at capabilities however then you do not have the firepower to deal with all the enemy infantry. On the other hand it feels like the soviets do not have the same problem. They are free to spend munitions wherever they like as each investment is not a huge gamble. Take for instance the mine situation. Soviets can plant one 30 muni without a problem, there cheap and 30 munitions isn't a big investment which is easily recovered. Now take the Ostheer Teller mine, you can only plant 2 maximum during the tier 1-tier 2 stage and each one cost's 60 munis. It would take you a while to save up another 60 if you wanted to afford panzershreks or a flame-ht upgrade. Furthermore since it's only one mine it can easily be missed by the T-70.

Honestly if the Ostheer was given the 30 munition mine that the Soviets have currently the current balance would be so much better.

Paks being able to cloak at vet 0 or even vet 1 would be too much. Soviet armor mostly cannot take a punch despite being able to put up a slight fight. Cloaking paks on top of generally superior German anti-tank ability would be too much just to try and deal with the T-70.

I really disagree with a single shrek upgrade. It makes Pgrens too good overall at killing both vehicles and infantry. If PGrens ever got the ability to upgrade 1 shrek, they'd have to do something where they start with only 2 assault rifles (also increase AR effectiveness into mid range) and 2 rifles, and you have to choose between 2 more ARs or 1 Shrek.

Problem with tank traps, and defenses overall is that it promotes a very fixed play that's never jived well with CoH overall. With TTs being locked to commander choice, you can be pretty defensive, but you lose out on more offensive abilities.

Sadly, at the time that the multiplayer is representing, Germany had switched away from using AT rifles entirely.

3. There are multiple ways to take out a T-70 or T-70 horde, these include; fast p4 tech, teller mines, riegal mines, shrecks in a halftrack, dbl paks at a distance, keeping 1-2 shreck squads next to a halftrack and constantly reinforcing them, dbl 222s upgunned (cheaper than 2 shreck squads), and an mg when it's switched to AP rounds(works best in buildings since harder to kill). If you can't take them out maybe your opponents have a higher skill level than you.

We all know u don't want your beloved winning unit to get touched, but look at what u wrote.

Fast p4 tech, will only be on the field a few minutes after the t70 unless germans have had map control, teller mines- sometimes hard to put down where u want them and also require the t70 to go in the right spot. ( You don't see PG's and think hmm i need a mine right there to counter them.) Shreks in a halftrack is quite expensive and requires a commander, it will only help against 1 t70 not multiple. Dbl paks... Thats a big investmentand there will not be much to support. 2 shreks squads??? serious?

MG with Ap rounds is avoidable.

Higher skill level.... righto, giving yourself some credit?

Paks being able to cloak at vet 0 or even vet 1 would be too much. Soviet armor mostly cannot take a punch despite being able to put up a slight fight. Cloaking paks on top of generally superior German anti-tank ability would be too much just to try and deal with the T-70.

I really disagree with a single shrek upgrade. It makes Pgrens too good overall at killing both vehicles and infantry. If PGrens ever got the ability to upgrade 1 shrek, they'd have to do something where they start with only 2 assault rifles (also increase AR effectiveness into mid range) and 2 rifles, and you have to choose between 2 more ARs or 1 Shrek.

Problem with tank traps, and defenses overall is that it promotes a very fixed play that's never jived well with CoH overall. With TTs being locked to commander choice, you can be pretty defensive, but you lose out on more offensive abilities.

Sadly, at the time that the multiplayer is representing, Germany had switched away from using AT rifles entirely.

Nailed it. I agree with you.

We all know u don't want your beloved winning unit to get touched, but look at what u wrote.

Fast p4 tech, will only be on the field a few minutes after the t70 unless germans have had map control, teller mines- sometimes hard to put down where u want them and also require the t70 to go in the right spot. ( You don't see PG's and think hmm i need a mine right there to counter them.) Shreks in a halftrack is quite expensive and requires a commander, it will only help against 1 t70 not multiple. Dbl paks... Thats a big investmentand there will not be much to support. 2 shreks squads??? serious?

MG with Ap rounds is avoidable.

Higher skill level.... righto, giving yourself some credit?

My "beloved" T-70 has been touched, scratched, burned, ripped, shredded, and squeezed, and is currently in the process of being UP'd with the anticipation of the new scatter patch. Weather I like it or not it will be "touched", I am simply giving constructive feedback on why it shouldn't be tampered with to the point of it being utterly useless, like a Penal Battalion, making the game even more dull than it already is.

-In the case of multiple T-70s after holding off one with shrecks in a hf, you can easily go for a Stug as it costs the same as getting to the point of purchasing a 2nd or 3rd T-70(when using Soviet Industry). (Or go for the cheaper stug(get more than one) available in one of the assgren doctrines). Tellers can be placed in great spots, for example on semoisky you can place them on the two paths leading out of the enemy base(for the summer version), as well as place them in front of paks, next to paks, or near where you'd like to position your troops as the T-70 will most likely engage you in this area and you have a higher probability of it hitting your teller mine.

Here's a great example replay proving most of what is stated above:

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  3

  VS

  SturmTigerGiap

  EXPERTSVonIvan

  SturmTigerGiap vs VonIvan.

  by: vietnam_giap13 map: Kholodny Ferma

  4

  -

-See anyone else on the top 10 leaderboards using my strat/winning SNF except for Andy, ofc he is in the same clan as myself, so it's fair game as he's a very good player(which uses more than one strat for each faction, as do I). I am also the #2 ranked Soviet player, so obviously I know what I'm talking about, otherwise I wouldn't be where I am.

We all know u don't want your beloved winning unit to get touched, but look at what u wrote.

Fast p4 tech, will only be on the field a few minutes after the t70 unless germans have had map control, teller mines- sometimes hard to put down where u want them and also require the t70 to go in the right spot. ( You don't see PG's and think hmm i need a mine right there to counter them.) Shreks in a halftrack is quite expensive and requires a commander, it will only help against 1 t70 not multiple. Dbl paks... Thats a big investmentand there will not be much to support. 2 shreks squads??? serious?

MG with Ap rounds is avoidable.

Higher skill level.... righto, giving yourself some credit?

Well, for a soviet to rush out a T-70 is exactly the fuel cost it takes for the german player to get a Stug out if he skipped T2. And this occurs only if a soviet player completely rushes the t70. So essentially no building/having molotovs, AT nades. As well they have to build Tier 1 which is significantly inferior to the Ossim Possum Tier 2 bulding.

Either way the T-70 and ostwind are receiving a scatter nerf, so it's going to have a harder time kiting.

As for Teller Mines, it depends on the map, if it's on seimosky then its pretty damn reliable, while ferma it's unreliable.

Shreck Pgrens can either be your savior, or just can just mess up and miss. This is where if you know if the RNG GOD OF WAR is on your side.

Also when countering it with a pak, people need to have a gren by it so when it tries to flank it or comming close. You'll faust its ass which will buy your pak some more time to position it and kill it.

Having a gren support is good, except the t70 has great range and can jst go around the pak and kill the grens, then the pak once the support is gone.

The grens are there to either faust it if the t70 gets close or buy your At time to position and shoot. It's going to take a while for the t70 to kill all 7 soldiers.

We require an ultimatum.

+1

I never understood why the gave the tellermine to the german faction....

SOLUTION 3: Give both sides universal tank traps like in vcoh days.

SOLUTION 4: Give Paks back their old cloaking ability from the vcoh days. This would make it much easier for Ostheer player to set up an ambush.

Tank traps like in coh1, sure, but I don't think it will change anything.
I haven't played and watched a lot of COH1 games, but I never saw tank traps used in 1v1s. (doesn't mean it never happens)

Paks with cloaking ability, I would prefer a hold fire button, or a "shoot only vehicules" button. True sight gives nice ambush possibilities already. The problem is with paks revealing where they are, trying to shoot everything on sight.

For your other propositions, I think we should wait for the hotfix first, then reevaluate.

Let me start by saying I have no problem with soviet industry allowing users to be able to construct buildings or produce tanks incredibly fast. The issue here is the Ostheer's impractical arsenal in dealing with lots of light armor which has been highlighted by this new commander. This mainly being the high cost of anything munition related to counter vehicles. E.G 60 muni Tellers and 120 muni shreks. Furthermore the T-70 is currently too good for it's price.

SOLUTION 1: Give the Ostheer the 30 muni mine that the Russian's have so that way the Germans have a mine that can do both damage to tanks and infantry. To make it fair Russian should also be given a heavier mine like the Teller. Furthermore in it's current state I would like to point out that the 80 muni infantry mine field is very unpractical in 1v1s due to it's high cost and long build time. Not to mention the obvious warning signs that stick up at the edge of the field warning Soviet players that there is indeed a mine field here. A better solution to this would be making each square 20 munitions.

SOLUTION 2: Give Panzer Grenadiers the ability to upgrade 1 shrek at a time for either 60-75 munition each. This would enable Ostheer players to invest in a Teller mine as well to counter light vehicles.

SOLUTION 3: Give both sides universal tank traps like in vcoh days.

SOLUTION 4: Give Paks back their old cloaking ability from the vcoh days. This would make it much easier for Ostheer player to set up an ambush.

SOLUTION 5: If the changes to scatter do not make the T-70 more balanced in the next patch I suggest either a mixture or one of the following; increase the reloading time for the T-70, decrease the speed of the T-70, decrease the accuracy of the T-70. I would not suggest increasing the cost of this unit as this would mean seeing less of them during matches and as we know the Russians with their Soviet War Machine were all about quantity rather than the quality.

SOLUTION 6: In TOW the panzer grens from that period where able to upgrade anti-rifles. Why not reintroduce these weapons along side shreks? These weapons would be much cheaper but less powerful.

Constructive feedback appreciated, thanks for reading.

i full agree with solution 1
about the regulär pak cloak like in coh1 the german pak can cloak, but it requires vet3 and this is imo pretty odd

For the early game scenario Ostheer players have to gamble where to use their munitions.

I don't see the gamble tbh: you perfectly know who held the fuel points and you perfectly know if you're gonna need AT imminently.
I personally get shrecks most of the times unless I know the opponent is way back in the fuel race.

I think you haven't adapted much to the recent changes since I keep seeing you using the same Osttruppen strategy

I'd like to see paks perform better