since we are adding prototype tanks in game

V1s didn't participate in tactical combat, Bergetigers didn't recover complete wreck vehicles, The Luftwaffe didn't participate much after Boddenpatte and they are present in the franchise doing so. I think its fairly clear that Relic tailors fiction to suit a narrative, and I'm fine with the Black prince, its not very out of this world and especially not in Relics franchise context.

I mean if they've been balancing the unit to be an allied heavy to counter the Tigers presence, I wouldn't want them to remove it and create balance issues. Since Relic doesn't care about timelines of units and you are obsessed with the deployment thing, they could add another allied heavy with he same stats from another time period in the war I guess. But simply removing the Black Prince alone is a pretty non starter and Relic isn't just going to create a vacuum, that means day one broken balance.

V1s didn't participate in tactical combat, Bergetigers didn't recover complete wreck vehicles, The Luftwaffe didn't participate much after Boddenpatte and they are present in the franchise doing so. I think its fairly clear that Relic tailors fiction to suit a narrative, and I'm fine with the Black prince, its not very out of this world and especially not in Relics franchise context.

I mean if they've been balancing the unit to be an allied heavy to counter the Tigers presence, I wouldn't want them to remove it and create balance issues. Since Relic doesn't care about timelines of units and you are obsessed with the deployment thing, they could add another allied heavy with he same stats from another time period in the war I guess. But simply removing the Black Prince alone is a pretty non starter and Relic isn't just going to create a vacuum, that means day one broken balance.

No, it's just lazy filling in of balance and design that paves the way for an even bigger paper army - Japan. If you want to fit Japan into the Game against the IS-2 or SU-100 or other allied tanks, then almost the entire Japanese Army is a set of non-combat or prototype tanks.

V1s didn't participate in tactical combat, Bergetigers didn't recover complete wreck vehicles, The Luftwaffe didn't participate much after Boddenpatte and they are present in the franchise doing so. I think its fairly clear that Relic tailors fiction to suit a narrative, and I'm fine with the Black prince, its not very out of this world and especially not in Relics franchise context.

V1 - wrong representation of usage, yet the thing is authentical
Bergitiger - authentical usage (engi vehicle) put into a gameplay mechanic
Luft - wrong time period, yet authentical representation.

Black Prince on the other neither authentical nor wrongly represented nor using wrong time period. If we count game to be set in WW2, Black Prince is simply out of scope of this time period. Adding it to the game is pure fiction, without any redeeming justification for it to exist.

On a side note, the only examples of pure BP level fiction in both CoH games, would probably be things like flame\stun grenades and KCH from vCoH.

I mean if they've been balancing the unit to be an allied heavy to counter the Tigers presence, I wouldn't want them to remove it and create balance issues.

And thats the point, there are churchills with the same gun as BP which were actually used. And no-one against UKF having them with the same stats which are planned fro BP. Its the not performance\role of BP what is a problem, its the vehicle itself.

V1 - wrong representation of usage, yet the thing is authentical
Bergitiger - authentical usage (engi vehicle) put into a gameplay mechanic
Luft - wrong time period, yet authentical representation.

Black Prince on the other neither authentical nor wrongly represented nor using wrong time period. If we count game to be set in WW2, Black Prince is simply out of scope of this time period. Adding it to the game is pure fiction, without any redeeming justification for it to exist.

On a side note, the only examples of pure BP level fiction in both CoH games, would probably be things like flame\stun grenades and KCH from vCoH.



And thats the point, there are churchills with the same gun as BP which were actually used. And no-one against UKF having them with the same stats which are planned fro BP. Its the not performance\role of BP what is a problem, its the vehicle itself.

Operation "Bodenplatte" (January 1, 1945) is not the end of the Luftwaffe, during the Seelow-Berlin operation on April 16-19, 1945, almost at the end of the war, the Ground Forces supported 3,300 aircraft, this is clearly not nothing.

V1 - wrong representation of usage, yet the thing is authentical
Bergitiger - authentical usage (engi vehicle) put into a gameplay mechanic
Luft - wrong time period, yet authentical representation.

V1 - Well... Its a story of its own.
Bergetiger - pure fantasy unit based on a bad misidentification. The "Bergetiger" was most likely a "Ladungsträger" - an armored demolition charge transport vehicle. The Bergetiger was spotted in Italy. Both Tiger units in Italy were reinforced by demolition units (Funklenk-Kompanien). The demolition units should bring in heavy explosives to clear minefields or to destroy obstacles. The demolition placing vehicles should offer some armored protection. The Tiger is most likely the creation of one of these units to get an heavy armored vehicle to place demolition charges in positions were unarmored units cant operate e.g. pioneers when they try to clean fields or positions of not exploded ammunition.
Luftwaffe - Unlike many misconceptions the Luftwaffe was active in battle until the last day of war. And against all "cliches" the Ju87 saw combat in the west until the very end. Sure. The remaining StuKas were moved to night harassment units but at the end they were still in service. Same story for the bombers (Bombing of Eindhoven or Bastogne) and other elements.

And thats the point, there are churchills with the same gun as BP which were actually used. And no-one against UKF having them with the same stats which are planned fro BP. Its the not performance\role of BP what is a problem, its the vehicle itself.

First; As far as i know the "BP" was the only 17pdr armed "Churchill". The "best" gun version would be the Churchill 6pdr version with the famous british sabot rounds. The rounds were deadly enough for most german tanks (e.g. the could penetrate a Jagdpanther at the gun mantlet). By calibre the QF 75mm would be "better" but as far as i know they didnt have sabot rounds for the Cromwell/Churchill 75mm. The Churchill NA75 used the "short 75mm" Sherman gun so it could deal with tanks too but by all 3 types the 6pdr version would be the best "armor killer" in the Churchill arsenal - by pure paper stats and when thinking only of the hard factors.

Black Prince on the other neither authentical nor wrongly represented nor using wrong time period. If we count game to be set in WW2, Black Prince is simply out of scope of this time period. Adding it to the game is pure fiction, without any redeeming justification for it to exist.

Just to throw in my opinion:
For me i have a simple rule:

I can accept any weapon or vehicle in a ww2 "CoH" like game that saw active combat service at the frontline (and the combat service was no "accident" - before someone is starting to talk about the Maus combat engagement at Kummersdorf against the soviet forces xD).

So i can see why Relic is adding the "BP" (or "fake BP" here) because they want a Tiger killer and that is easy to do with the paper stats of the BP.
BUT i would welcome any change. I would prefer a Churchill version. I could accept a version that didnt served in the italian theater but i would prefer a "historical" replacement.

So that is my point of view

And for the Sturmtiger faction here;
They saw a number of battles but many battles were forgotten. E.g. the dash of the Hochwaldbresche at the Reichswald near Goch was one of the engagements that saw combat deployment of Sturmtigers but that is forgotten or not mentioned by many Sturmtiger articles.
At the end the Sturmtiger was the typical result of the german army doctrine of the ww2:
It is better to have a small number of highly special vehicles/weapons for a special job instate of having no vehicle/weapon at all. That was the typical doctrine and the reason why the Wehrmacht invested in a number of small scale productions runs for some special weapons.

"tell me you learned history from youtube channels without telling me you learned history from youtube channels"

I learned history from 9 collective years of university experience and ongoing learning as part of my job because I teach and write history at the university level. If anyone here exclusively learns from Youtube, it's the person who sounds like they jumped straight from Sargon of Akkad's comments section (you).

Now that we have that out of the way, do you want to address anything I said there or are you just going to futilely try and discredit anyone who has a different opinion?

V1 isn't a story of its own, its tactical use is pure fiction. They didn't run out and make a ramp to launch one at a moving tank column.

And yes, I am aware the Luftwaffe existed post Bodenplatte, but its ability to make significant change on the landscape was very limited so in the games context, fictional.

And yes, the Sturmtriger regiments as any other would have kept records of being deployed. But is success out in the field has not earned it anywhere near its reputation in COH as a franchise. It did great when its target was a city, what it was meant for. This changed when its target was tactical not strategic.

So again, Relic has little regard for Fictional history. Black prince cant simply vanish as that will break their product day one. So the discussion cant just be oh remove it, or add these other units last moment.

V1 isn't a story of its own, its tactical use is pure fiction. They didn't run out and make a ramp to launch one at a moving tank column.

And yes, I am aware the Luftwaffe existed post Bodenplatte, but its ability to make significant change on the landscape was very limited so in the games context, fictional.

And yes, the Sturmtriger regiments as any other would have kept records of being deployed. But is success out in the field has not earned it anywhere near its reputation in COH as a franchise. It did great when its target was a city, what it was meant for. This changed when its target was tactical not strategic.

So again, Relic has little regard for Fictional history. Black prince cant simply vanish as that will break their product day one. So the discussion cant just be oh remove it, or add these other units last moment.

So bombarding bridges with V-1s is not a tactical use? And is this pure fiction?

I'm talking of the games fiction, that you as a player just placed them where ever you pleased in a split moment. They were not used against a battalion of troops moving along. So yea, pure fiction.

I'm talking of the games fiction, that you as a player just placed them where ever you pleased in a split moment. They were not used against a battalion of troops moving along. So yea, pure fiction.

And troops did not move along these bridges and supplies were not carried out. It was a blow in a vacuum. Oh no, it wasn't.

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You are doing some heavy tailoring there but allow me. The V1 relied on recon of a known position and time to construct a ramp and set the auto pilot, for a chance to hit an area. The targets generally being cities. Id cast serious doubt on its ability to hit a bridge with a singe deployment. So yes, fiction on a heavy level and certainly again not used on single positions of troops on a platoon or battalion level as COH1 depicted. Quite often as a counter to USF base howitzers as I remember (in the game not life).

So again for the numerous times, COH is a work of historical fiction already because its a game, Black Prince is likely coming and id doubt its full removal or adding a German unit as well as that would tilt balance the other way.

So reiterating again, to maintain the games designed balance its likely staying put. The only successful suggestion I could see them implementing is a unit with identical stats just with a different model. Certainly don't see them adding an axis unit to solve this gatekeeping of some kind of historical accuracy.

You are doing some heavy tailoring there but allow me. The V1 relied on recon of a known position and time to construct a ramp and set the auto pilot, for a chance to hit an area. The targets generally being cities. Id cast serious doubt on its ability to hit a bridge with a singe deployment. So yes, fiction on a heavy level and certainly again not used on single positions of troops on a platoon or battalion level as COH1 depicted. Quite often as a counter to USF base howitzers as I remember (in the game not life).

No, no, the V-1 could also be hung and corrected from a bomber, and it was with these V-1s that the Germans fired at Soviet crossings across the Oder River.

And did they achieve a 100% on target rate like the COH1 V1?

And did they achieve a 100% on target rate like the COH1 V1?

Oh buddy, you don't know how to justify. You have already been told that the V-1 was used tactically and the soldiers who crossed the crossings and the sappers who built the crossings died. But you keep saying it's a fantasy. The Black Prince has no place in the game. Everything that was in the game before was involved in the war, if I wanted to play paper tanks, I would go to play World of Tanks.

The record of aerially launched V1s at southern England the UK analysts weren't sure which of two cities were their intended target from the spread of the rockets. That's a strategic target they cant reliably hit. I mean to say the v1 was a reliable tactical weapon as its represented in COH is outrageously fictional, I'm not sure what kind of justification you need but history shows it as a strategic weapon not a tactical one.

Relic is making a game, if history was the ultimate concern that would have been some boring multiplayer as you'd permanently have COH 1 war machine and they even dropped that idea from COH2 soviets which was a bit un historical.

The record of aerially launched V1s at southern England the UK analysts weren't sure which of two cities were their intended target from the spread of the rockets. That's a strategic target they cant reliably hit. I mean to say the v1 was a reliable tactical weapon as its represented in COH is outrageously fictional, I'm not sure what kind of justification you need but history shows it as a strategic weapon not a tactical one.

You have nothing more to say. V-1s were used tactically both on the Eastern Front and on the Western. The discussion is closed. The units that were before this game all participated in the fighting. So the game, despite the arcade, is authentic. The Black Prince is not authentic.

Unfortunately for you this thread doesn't lock on your tailored idea of historical accuracy. They were terrible tactical weapons.

So it was extremely un historical in COH that they could be launched pin point accurate onto individual squads and units if you so wished. Go figure un historical items in a video game.