vickers k

I'm pretty sure there is a way, I might ask for the maintainer of the https://pelando.tistory.com/.(Spoiler alert: Korean) He parses in-game data and currently all it's data are up-to-date with last patch of 2021.

It's either he or Lelic made mistake.

Since the difference of 25% to 60% accuracy is pretty big you probably test it yourself but timing the time to kill an entity moving and stationary.

I highly doubt that MOD team would make such a mistake thou when trying to create to BAR clone...

The reason I don't like to have debate with you is that you take all the words so "literally" without any sense of the context or common situation. I'm not sure what you think of it, but I think that leads to nowhere. And probably the reason many users in this forum is offensive to you.

When some says something like



It just means what it says in general gameplay. It's not a statement that requires "What?!? Vickers K can't win engagement vs. assualt gren?! I SHALL PROVE HIM WRONG!" and go for 5-man bolster up & 120 muni invested tommies behind green cover and make ass. gren to run from the front from the max range with nothing.

Exactly.

In mathematics and formal logic in general, there is a term that is used specifically to avoid trivial cases like this and it's "Without loss of generality", meaning that there is no need to take into account the most easy cases so as to not waste time.

That's just shows Vip's logic knowledge and application is underpar.

The reason I don't like to have debate with you is that you take all the words so "literally" without any sense of the context or common situation. I'm not sure what you think of it, but I think that leads to nowhere. And probably the reason many users in this forum is offensive to you.

If you do not like debating with me nobody is forcing you.

When some says something like



It just means what it says in general gameplay. It's not a statement that requires "What?!? Vickers K can't win engagement vs. assualt gren?! I SHALL PROVE HIM WRONG!" and go for 5-man bolster up & 120 muni invested tommies behind green cover and make ass. gren to run from the front from the max range with nothing.

If something it factual wrong it does not promote the debate on the contrary.

So point things that are false open the way forward.

And by the way obviously even 2 bren(90 muni invested) tommies behind green cover wins with 3 model alive - 30 muni wasted with extra cost of a one man. Let us pray for his poor soul. -

Great.

Did you use sprint on assault grenadiers on approach?

I highly doubt that MOD team would make such a mistake thou when trying to create to BAR clone...

The only problem is that it act as bar clone. Not the actual copy-and-paste. For example, bar has 70% moving accuracy to start with

So have they made mistake with numbers? Or parsing went wrong somehow? Not sure at the moment

If you do not like debating with me nobody is forcing you.


If something it factual wrong it does not promote the debate on the contrary.

So point things that are false open the way forward.

Fact: Things can go both ways






Edit: noone with a basic experience with the game will ever use ass gren in such a fashion.

If you do not like debating with me nobody is forcing you.

Yeah true, it's just me can't withstanding nonsenses.

Did you use sprint on assault grenadiers on approach?

Well, since you've asked, I did test again with sprint ability used, but nothing seems to be changing.

The only problem is that it act as bar clone. Not the actual copy-and-paste. For example, bar has 70% moving accuracy to start with

So have they made mistake with numbers? Or parsing went wrong somehow? Not sure at the moment

You have claimed that vicker K has 25% moving accuracy do you have anything to back up that claim?

Any stat on an reliable site or any test that would make such theory plausible?

Until you have something to support your claim I would suggest that you do not repeat with such certainty.

I personally have more trust in the patch notes than an unsupported claim.

Yeah true, it's just me can't withstanding nonsenses.



Well, since you've asked, I did test again with sprint ability used, but nothing seems to be changing.

While the vicker/bren combo seem to losing in my test, ironically.
This is 5 man section with a bren and a vicker k vs 6 man assault gren. I will say there are rng and section can win from time to time but dont forget a gren is being use wrong in all the test.

Since the difference of 25% to 60% accuracy is pretty big you probably test it yourself but timing the time to kill an entity moving and stationary.

I highly doubt that MOD team would make such a mistake thou when trying to create to BAR clone...

I think they kinda did made some mistake.

Just did a quick test with 2-man tommy with 2 vickers K. Running straight for 2 min and a 8 secs. yet 2 models are still alived. Took down it after they stopped at the end of the map. So it would take more than this if they kept moving.

I mean, there is other stats that does affect moving dps. but it origianlly took 35 sec to wipe entier squad stationary. It takes x3.65 more time to wipe in moving doesn't make sense to me unless it has 25% moving accuracy (which kinda sums up doesn't it?)

I think they kinda did made some mistake.

Just did a quick test with 2-man tommy with 2 vickers K. Running straight for 2 min and a 8 secs. yet 2 models are still alived. Took down it after they stopped at the end of the map. So it would take more than this if they kept moving.

I mean, there is other stats that does affect moving dps. but it origianlly took 35 sec to wipe entier squad stationary. It takes x3.65 more time to wipe in moving doesn't make sense to me unless it has 25% moving accuracy (which kinda sums up doesn't it?)

Where they in cover while moving?

If you are going to do the test on Vicker K about accuracy I would advice you to test with another type of infatry that does not have penalties like the raid sections/officer.

Where they in cover while moving?

How can they in cover while moving for 2+min.?

No, none of the squads were in cover in both stationary and moving. I tested on the testrangemap. So no obstacle involved what so ever.

How can they in cover while moving for 2+min.?

crates from Rocket arty

No, none of the squads were in cover in both stationary and moving. I tested on the testrangemap. So no obstacle involved what so ever.

Interesting I might have a look at it later since I can not at the moment, I would still try another squad and not IS.

As for DPS BAR has 70% accuracy but around 50% DPS on the move so that theory does not really hold water.

i cant do the test now but i suggest comparing TTK of tommy 2 vicker k and tommy 2 bar while moving on a same squad. If the vicker k is a bar clone (closely) the TTK should not have too much difference.

Where they in cover while moving?

If you are going to do the test on Vicker K about accuracy I would advice you to test with another type of infatry that does not have penalties like the raid sections/officer.

For finding out the stats that would be good.
However the whole point of this thread was OP saying the Vickers K is not worth it on IS. If Leithianz's test is correct, it just shows how badly IS with Vickers K perform on the move, which completely contradicts the design point of the weapon in the first place. Unless you're talking about 4v4 games at 40+ min, assuming there to always be cover for negating the out of cover penalty is creating a completely artificial point.

i cant do the test now but i suggest comparing TTK of tommy 2 vicker k and tommy 2 bar while moving on a same squad. If the vicker k is a bar clone (closely) the TTK should not have too much difference.

Did a quick test in same condition,

no-video tho.. started at 21:33, last model dropped at 22:40 so 1 min. 7 seconds. about x2 times faster than Vickers K



BTW, can anybody tell me how to upload local pic directly to the coh2.org? Do I really have to use other site to upload & paste link to it?

BTW, can anybody tell me how to upload local pic directly to the coh2.org? Do I really have to use other site to upload & paste link to it?

Click on your profile, "My Files", then upload. Copy the link and paste it into your post.

Did a quick test in same condition,

no-video tho.. started at 21:33, last model dropped at 22:40 so 1 min. 7 seconds. about x2 times faster than Vickers K

This kind of variety is too much for a "clone", especially when they said the vicker k have 60% moving acc and charge the two weapon for the same cost.

For finding out the stats that would be good.
However the whole point of this thread was OP saying the Vickers K is not worth it on IS.

One has to keep in mind that Vicker K in not an upgrade for tommies is an ability available to the M3 halftruck and can be used in different sqauds.

Now without accurate stat or sufficient test is rather hard to respond to the question if it worth using on IS.

If rhe information provided by patch notes is correct and it has DPS at ranges 0/10/15/20/25/30/35:

12.53/10.81/8.44/7.13/5.99/4.93/3.97 I would point out that the weapon better than Bren with a

DPS 4.14/5.09/5.56/5.81/5.97/6.39/6.86 even at ranges close to 25 so it better MID to close but probably only worth the extra munition if used in ranges under 15.

If Leithianz's test is correct, it just shows how badly IS with Vickers K perform on the move, which completely contradicts the design point of the weapon in the first place. Unless you're talking about 4v4 games at 40+ min, assuming there to always be cover for negating the out of cover penalty is creating a completely artificial point.

Even with bad moving DPS it still better than Bren that has 0 moving DPS.

At the end of the day Vikcer K is not designed around IS and I do not like what OP is actually suggesting which is replacing the Vicker-k on m3 with Bren. If one wants Bren for his IS one can get them by unlocking the weapon rack instead of calling the M3.

One has to keep in mind that Vicker K in not an upgrade for tommies is an ability available to the M3 halftruck and can be used in different sqauds.

The main options are RE, IS, and the potential one officer squad. On the officer the Vickers does well and fits well. But the fact that the Vickers comes via the M3 and not as an upgrade for the officer shows how it is intended to be used on other squads.
REs are not good fighting squads with their first and only combat bonus coming at vet3. I know you have argued for putting LMGs on them in the past, but I don't think it is an efficient use of munitions at all. Also the only way to somehow see a point in it is if you lock yourself to anvil for heavy sappers.

Now without accurate stat or sufficient test is rather hard to respond to the question if it worth using on IS.

If rhe information provided by patch notes is correct and it has DPS at ranges 0/10/15/20/25/30/35:

12.53/10.81/8.44/7.13/5.99/4.93/3.97 I would point out that the weapon better than Bren with a

DPS 4.14/5.09/5.56/5.81/5.97/6.39/6.86 even at ranges close to 25 so it better MID to close but probably only worth the extra munition if used in ranges under 15.

Even with bad moving DPS it still better than Bren that has 0 moving DPS.

At the end of the day Vikcer K is not designed around IS and I do not like what OP is actually suggesting which is replacing the Vicker-k on m3 with Bren. If one wants Bren for his IS one can get them by unlocking the weapon rack instead of calling the M3.

I am quite sure that the DPS in the patch notes are wrong, because I have seen them being wrong before when the exact changes were stated.
No one knows how they calculate them, but let's assume they are roughly what we need to expect.
By pure stats, yes, the Vickers K is okay. Bear in mind it costs way more than the Bren, so it having an edge should actually be the case.

My point is that the Vickers does not fit IS. IS cannot use its benefits due to the out of cover bonus. If the Vickers is not designed around upgrading your main unit, there is not a big reason to get it in the first place, thus the design is broken. RE spam is far from viable, and we actually have indication that the Vickers potentially does not have the stats it should have. Regardless, as UKF, you're stuck with Sections, and the M3 providing the Vickers to your Sections is not helpful.
Fact is also that Enfields are long range weapons, even more so than Grenadier Kar98s. They synergize best with other long range weapons.

...
If Vickers K is balanced only to Raid Sections but not to the M3 handing out weapons, it's just another testimony on how badly this new Vickers K concept has been though about...

Copied from another thread since it seem to suit here better.

It is my opinion that the original concept was bad providing simply more of the same in the form of another LMG the implementation might have fault but that is another story.

Actually I had suggested a different weapons types in the bren/Vickers-k as an implantation of an early hammer/anvil choice that would make the anvil/hammer have added dept.

The main options are RE, IS, and the potential one officer squad. On the officer the Vickers does well and fits well.

Yes, keep in mind that officer get 1 Vickers K stock and can upgrade to duel Vickers with the M3.

But the fact that the Vickers comes via the M3 and not as an upgrade for the officer shows how it is intended to be used on other squads.
REs are not good fighting squads with their first and only combat bonus coming at vet3.

that is inaccurate they get a combat bonus at vet 1

I know you have argued for putting LMGs on them in the past, but I don't think it is an efficient use of munitions at all. Also the only way to somehow see a point in it is if you lock yourself to anvil for heavy sappers.

If you thing that R.E. are not good fighting squads I suggest you check tight ropes video playing high level 1vs1 using mobile assault and basically having commands and R.E.R as infatry.

I am quite sure that the DPS in the patch notes are wrong, because I have seen them being wrong before when the exact changes were stated.
No one knows how they calculate them, but let's assume they are roughly what we need to expect.
By pure stats, yes, the Vickers K is okay. Bear in mind it costs way more than the Bren, so it having an edge should actually be the case.

My point is that the Vickers does not fit IS. IS cannot use its benefits due to the out of cover bonus. If the Vickers is not designed around upgrading your main unit, there is not a big reason to get it in the first place, thus the design is broken. RE spam is far from viable, and we actually have indication that the Vickers potentially does not have the stats it should have. Regardless, as UKF, you're stuck with Sections, and the M3 providing the Vickers to your Sections is not helpful.
Fact is also that Enfields are long range weapons, even more so than Grenadier Kar98s. They synergize best with other long range weapons.

This is where we disagree.

Having unit that are good at certain ranges is good for creating rock/paper/scissors mechanics but but that does not mean that mixing weapon that "do not synergize well" will automatically lead to a weak squad.

For instance, the M1 are mid do close semi automatic rifles (carbines) and M1919 is an LMG that do not synezise "well" together. On the other hand double LMG riflemen proved to be too strong because they had all the advantages of the long range squads without being vulnerable to close combat with the 3 m1. (and there are other examples)

To sum up:

imo the design of weapon with different profiles imo is better than 2 types of LMG that are equal in cost efficiency but one cost more. The implementation is a different story.

(The changes of removing the ability to donate weapons and the easier access to unit where also good changes, since in the old implementation it was a nightmare to balance the m3)