Jackson wind up - Wind down

Why is the Jackson the almost only tank with a wind up and down delay? The only other tank with it is the M10 (USF and UKF version).

It makes the Jacksons the slowest alpha strike firer. Even casemate tanks like the SU, Jagtiger or Elefant have a faster alpha strike.

Additionally even if the Jackson reload time is shorter than most of other tanks/tank destroyers, in reality it fire slower.

example
Pz4 Reload duration 5.3 - 5.7
M36 Reload duration 4.38 - 4.97
+
Wind up 0.5
Wind down 1.125

Since it seems the wind mechanism is also taken in account between each shot the Jackson fire slower and the Pz4 double it after the 6th/7th shot. I don't exactly know how the calculation is made but its easy to visualize in game.

The question is why does it have it?

Even the Elefant fire as fast as the Jackson when both vet3 and faster if you use the AP shell on the Jackson.

The question is why does it have it?

Short answer: animations. Fixed windup & winddown delays are required to play these properly.

This might be a bit intransparent compared to weapons with "regular" reload delay between shots, but gameplay-wise I don't see any issue. The ROF of the Jackson or Panther is balanced with windup/winddown taken into consideration (also regarding vet and ability bonuses btw). Without it these vehicles would simply have a longer reload delay, leading to the same outcome.

Short answer: animations. Fixed windup & winddown delays are required to play these properly.

This might be a bit intransparent compared to weapons with "regular" reload delay between shots, but gameplay-wise I don't see any issue. The ROF of the Jackson or Panther is balanced with windup/winddown taken into consideration (also regarding vet and ability bonuses btw). Without it these vehicles would simply have a longer reload delay, leading to the same outcome.

I can understand that balance wise you want the Jackson to reload slower but since the alpha strike already come later by 1.6 seconds later this also add delay to the reload difference.

1st shot is 1.6 second later than other tanks, then 2nd shot is reload time + wind up wind down difference + those initial 1.6 second, 3rd shot etc...

I can understand that balance wise you want the Jackson to reload slower but since the alpha strike already come later by 1.6 seconds later this also add delay to the reload difference.

1st shot is 1.6 second later than other tanks, then 2nd shot is reload time + wind up wind down difference + those initial 1.6 second, 3rd shot etc...

I am not fully sure which wind up/down delay is applied when, but I am fairly certain that at least wind down comes after the actual shot.
I think the initial shot should not be later than 0.75 seconds taking aim time into account. Otherwise I would have missed that the Jackson would always take approximately teo seconds for the first shot. Don't think that this is the case

As Hannibal already pointed out, it's only the windup and aim times that are applied before a shot is fired, so there's only a ~0.75 s delay (0.5 windup + 0.125 fire aim + 0.125 ready aim) before the 1st shot. The aim times happen to be the same for almost every tank in the game (typically 1 frame), so the actual difference between, say, a Jackson and P4 firing is "just" 0.5 s. Now this can arguably be a lot in a firefight where split seconds can decide a winner, but it's still far off from 1.6 s.
Also note that windup/winddown only apply once per firing cycle, so they don't add up quite the way you suggested. A tank with 1 s windup, 1 s winddown and 3 s reload will have exactly the same ROF as a tank with zero windup/winddown and 5 s reload. The only difference would be that, if both were ordered to fire simultaneously, the tank with 1 s windup would always shoot 1 s later.

I am not fully sure which wind up/down delay is applied when, but I am fairly certain that at least wind down comes after the actual shot.
I think the initial shot should not be later than 0.75 seconds taking aim time into account. Otherwise I would have missed that the Jackson would always take approximately teo seconds for the first shot. Don't think that this is the case

As Hannibal already pointed out, it's only the windup and aim times that are applied before a shot is fired, so there's only a ~0.75 s delay (0.5 windup + 0.125 fire aim + 0.125 ready aim) before the 1st shot. The aim times happen to be the same for almost every tank in the game (typically 1 frame), so the actual difference between, say, a Jackson and P4 firing is "just" 0.5 s. Now this can arguably be a lot in a firefight where split seconds can decide a winner, but it's still far off from 1.6 s.
Also note that windup/winddown only apply once per firing cycle, so they don't add up quite the way you suggested. A tank with 1 s windup, 1 s winddown and 3 s reload will have exactly the same ROF as a tank with zero windup/winddown and 5 s reload. The only difference would be that, if both were ordered to fire simultaneously, the tank with 1 s windup would always shoot 1 s later.

Yes, it makes sense. I didn't know how to count on the wind up and wind down, thanks for the explaination. At least its not so bad on paper.

Still the Jackson is the slowest alpha strike shooter because of that, I did some test yesterday and 90% of time it shoot its alpha strike around a second later than any other tank. This is something I saw in game (and the reason why I decided to dig in) because when you're forced into a slugfest between tanks even if you're in a slightly favored situation many time you can't capitalized on it because the M36 will not shot in time.

ie:
I've been in situation where the jackson just had to shoot but shot later than its target that had to roll its turret before shooting.

The second situation that is much more problematic is the incapacity to perform hit and run with it. Unless your in ideal situation at max range with vision on its target, the Jackson is working on one leg. Every time you'll show up to shot, you'll be shot first by any at source your opponent has in range, can be the same tank, can be another tank or an atgun, thing that you can avoid with other tanks doing the same action.

What I mean is that unless you're in ideal condition, which you'll never be because maps don't allow it, you're disadvantaged everytime with your jackson.

LOL it's pretty funny that not only is USF a much harder faction than OKW or OST due primarily to it's idiotic tech tree, but it also suffers from equally idiotic game mechanics. The AT rifle grenade taking forever to deploy, the dumb weapon rack mechanics, and now the wind up.

LOL it's pretty funny that not only is USF a much harder faction than OKW or OST due primarily to it's idiotic tech tree, but it also suffers from equally idiotic game mechanics. The AT rifle grenade taking forever to deploy, the dumb weapon rack mechanics, and now the wind up.

Wind up/down is nothing special to USF, just saying...

Wind up/down is nothing special to USF, just saying...

M36 is one of the best Tank destroyer in game so people who want to rant but can not find disadvantage in it have to look at any difference and present it as major disadvantage when it clear is not.

I am not sure but I guess the reason these delays exist on the specific units have to with the fact that they are open top and one can see animation of the crew of the gun like ATGs.

Wind up/down is nothing special to USF, just saying...

Actually from the most usual list of tank/tank destroyers, the M36 and M10 are the only two suffering from it.

Actually from the most usual list of tank/tank destroyers, the M36 and M10 are the only two suffering from it.

Only M36/m10 are not actually suffering from anything.
And here is panther with wind down

Panther

Delays
Ready aim time near 0.13
Ready aim time mid 0.13
Ready aim time far 0.13
Fire aim time near 0.13
Fire aim time mid 0.13
Fire aim time far 0.13
Cooldown time near 0
Cooldown time mid 0
Cooldown time far 0
Wind up 0
Wind down 1

ROF 6.65

M36

Ready aim time near 0.13
Ready aim time mid 0.13
Ready aim time far 0.13
Fire aim time near 0.13
Fire aim time mid 0.13
Fire aim time far 0.13
Cooldown time near 0
Cooldown time mid 0
Cooldown time far 0
Wind up 0.5
Wind down 1.125

ROF 6.55

And SU-76's

Delays

Ready aim time near 0.13
Ready aim time mid 0.13
Ready aim time far 0.13
Fire aim time near 0.13
Fire aim time mid 0.13
Fire aim time far 0.13
Cooldown time near 0
Cooldown time mid 0
Cooldown time far 0
Wind up 0
Wind down 0.875

Now if want to have first shot when you are using you M36 the wrong way at range 35 without spotters I suggest you equip the "clear skies" bulletin that provides extra sight...

To be fair, the M10 and Jackson are the only tanks/TDs that have windup, which is the only significant delay out of the two anyway. Still, I don't think the additional 0.5 s is that much of a handicap, especially since you'd have the superior range and mobility of the Jackson to make up for it with proper positioning and scouting.

Actually from the most usual list of tank/tank destroyers, the M36 and M10 are the only two suffering from it.

The Panther is also an example, but you need to prove how they are suffering from it.

The M36 is a good TD, increasing its ROF would not be a great idea. You can obviously have a different opinion, but then provide a reasoning for it. The wind up increasing the time for the first shot is indeed one point, but to be honest I assume that the unit has been balanced around that after 4 years of community patches. The Jackson has very good offensive power, at range 60 you'll get the first shot regardless and at lower ranges the Jackson is supposed to lose.
There surely are some cases in between where the wind up time actually makes a difference, but I don't see a reason why those should be hugely problematic.

Iirc, the balance team has also increased the reload veterancy bonus slightly to make up for the fact that a larger part of the cycle is made up by wind times after this has been pointed out to them.

To be fair, the M10 and Jackson are the only tanks/TDs that have windup, which is the only significant delay out of the two anyway. Still, I don't think the additional 0.5 s is that much of a handicap, especially since you'd have the superior range and mobility of the Jackson to make up for it with proper positioning and scouting.

It just ensures that your always firing after other tanks, and sometime make the M36 not firing at target on the fog of war on tanks that reveal themselves. Nothing of a big deal indead, just making sure you never have an edge.

The Panther is also an example, but you need to prove how they are suffering from it.

The M36 is a good TD, increasing its ROF would not be a great idea. You can obviously have a different opinion, but then provide a reasoning for it. The wind up increasing the time for the first shot is indeed one point, but to be honest I assume that the unit has been balanced around that after 4 years of community patches. The Jackson has very good offensive power, at range 60 you'll get the first shot regardless and at lower ranges the Jackson is supposed to lose.
There surely are some cases in between where the wind up time actually makes a difference, but I don't see a reason why those should be hugely problematic.

Iirc, the balance team has also increased the reload veterancy bonus slightly to make up for the fact that a larger part of the cycle is made up by wind times after this has been pointed out to them.

So if you don't have 60 range you're supposed to lose? I think mapmakers didn't get your memo.

It just ensures that your always firing after other tanks, and sometime make the M36 not firing at target on the fog of war on tanks that reveal themselves. Nothing of a big deal indead, just making sure you never have an edge.



So if you don't have 60 range you're supposed to lose? I think mapmakers didn't get your memo.

Map pool in COH2 has been shit for the better part of a half-decade.

So if you don't have 60 range you're supposed to lose? I think mapmakers didn't get your memo.

Don't overexaggerate.
Every Allied TD is absolutely supposed to be vulnerable below range 40, either by slow ROF or not having a turret. This is fully intended.
The only difference the wind up time makes is the very first shot where about half a second delay is introduced. The only situations in which it really matters is a top speed P4 or Panther rushing you (allowing it to move 3-4 meters closer than to any other tank). And an occasional shot you won't get on a retreating enemy tank.
Any pot shots you take at the enemy and in prolonged fights, it does not matter.

That's it.
Can you explain how this makes the Jackson really suffer? It's definitely not a plus, but again: We've had years of balance patches, and the Jackson is an overall good TD. While this should be an issue obvious to everyone, you're the first person complaining about this years after the release of USF. You need to make a really strong case here.

Don't overexaggerate.
Every Allied TD is absolutely supposed to be vulnerable below range 40, either by slow ROF or not having a turret. This is fully intended.
The only difference the wind up time makes is the very first shot where about half a second delay is introduced. The only situations in which it really matters is a top speed P4 or Panther rushing you (allowing it to move 3-4 meters closer than to any other tank). And an occasional shot you won't get on a retreating enemy tank.
Any pot shots you take at the enemy and in prolonged fights, it does not matter.

That's it.
Can you explain how this makes the Jackson really suffer? It's definitely not a plus, but again: We've had years of balance patches, and the Jackson is an overall good TD. While this should be an issue obvious to everyone, you're the first person complaining about this years after the release of USF. You need to make a really strong case here.

What can be more explicit than -You're always going to shot second, never first.

Now, don't do a strawman, I never said Jackson should win engagement below range 40 or whatever, I said whenever there is a slugfest between tanks at firing range you're never going to shot first with the Jackson unless your opponent need to rotate their turret (and even here that's not always garantie).

In a game where majority engagement last couple of seconds, it matters a lot who shot first.

In a game where majority engagement last couple of seconds, it matters a lot who shot first.

Would agree if every axis tank had guaranteed penetration.

Jackson has guaranteed penetration at every shot, however that's no true of panthers/tigers/panzers. It's even visible in the video you posted.

Would agree if every axis tank had guaranteed penetration.

Jackson has guaranteed penetration at every shot, however that's no true of panthers/tigers/panzers. It's even visible in the video you posted.

jacksons and other allied TDs do not have guaranteed pen against heavy tanks


+ the panthers don't even face fucking elefants why do they need high pen when they pen every target very reliably (exception being 230 fuel heavy tanks, who are rare and you can brawl them enough with 1 panther)

What can be more explicit than -You're always going to shot second, never first.

Now, don't do a strawman, I never said Jackson should win engagement below range 40 or whatever, I said whenever there is a slugfest between tanks at firing range you're never going to shot first with the Jackson unless your opponent need to rotate their turret (and even here that's not always garantie).

In a game where majority engagement last couple of seconds, it matters a lot who shot first.

Again:
The wind up time matters for 3 meters. The distance you have to spot further than other Allied factions is pretty much exactly 3 meters, and now consider this because this is important: against a rushing enemy at top speed. 43/53 meters instead of 40/50. Then the shot of a Jackson will hit around the same point as a shot of the SU85/Firefly/basically any other tank.
That's literally what you're complaining about. Not nothing, but also not huge.

What you are describing as a "slugfest" is being ambushed by the opponent at sub 40 range. You're supposed to lose. If you properly spot for your Jackson up to range 43, you'll not have this issue.

Again, it's not nothing, but also not a huge deal. All I am asking is how you justify how this makes the Jackson really suffer given all it's advantages, especially the high mobility to keep distance.

Would agree if every axis tank had guaranteed penetration.

Jackson has guaranteed penetration at every shot, however that's no true of panthers/tigers/panzers. It's even visible in the video you posted.

That's pretty much non info. Panther won't fight Elefant anyway and Jackson bounces even in the video. But that's not the point of it. The point is the time delay.