The problem with USF Rear Echelon Squads

i think that the one and only useful purpose of the rear echelon is to equip bazookas on it and use it as an AT squad, the AI is too bad to justify any sort of usage

M1919 + BAR Rear Echelon is actually good, but I agree.

Can't count the number of time my RE zook keep missing light vehicles and don't pen anything superior. To me its a waste of muni to give them zook, better giving them 1 Bar and put the zook on lt. At least with the sprint you can do something sometimes...

With 1 Bar it has better chance to reach vet3.

How about USF getting an RM as a starting unit? but still needing RE to build caches etc as usual, but lowering RE price down to 170 like CE.

Regarding USF mortar, USF has 3 indirect stock, so they cannot overshadow each other too much, i suggest lowering price of USF mortar down to 200. Buffing USF mortar i feel would be gamebreaking

...and pio shares the profile with the rifles -> short range combat.

That is simply false:

Pioneer use MP40 that have an SMG profile
Riflemen use M1 that have carbine (semi auto) profile

and the MG42 crew managed to force a retreat.

The chances of a default crew forcing a retreat are negligible, you can test that in cheat mode.

Probably the mg was crew by PG or something.

I think that Rangers should have had the following:
...
Carbines are medium-long range

Rangers already have long-mid range Rifles

How about USF getting an RM as a starting unit? but still needing RE to build caches etc as usual, but lowering RE price down to 170 like CE.

Regarding USF mortar, USF has 3 indirect stock, so they cannot overshadow each other too much, i suggest lowering price of USF mortar down to 200. Buffing USF mortar i feel would be gamebreaking

RE used to be cheaper than they are now but that got nerfed since it was a pretty viable and fun tactic to just spam them. Worse than cons in many ways. Especially with Urban doctrine which gave them free rifle gren.

RE used to be cheaper than they are now but that got nerfed since it was a pretty viable and fun tactic to just spam them. Worse than cons in many ways. Especially with Urban doctrine which gave them free rifle gren.

Said in an earlier post that RE's are most useful late game, when they are kitted out with whatever, if you want to buff early game performance, you gotta nerf some of that late-game performance

snip

Thanks for commenting, I always like to hear your 3v3 insight into USF.

Of course, that wouldn't be a problem in 1v1s and 2v2s, but since one MG42 can lock down an entire area (eg Across the rheine beach) in most 3v3 maps, USF is often forced into building a mortar just for smoke... and USF mortar is a popcap eater in a nutshell. Low damage output, especially in late with grens having DMG reduction.

Another problem is the fact that grens fit much better behind most cover objects than 5+ man squads. Rifles tend to have one model outside of cover or at a poor angle compared to the MG arc. Often enough, even though Rifles will be behind green cover, they will get insta suppressed because of that one model.

Grens do have more concentration in each model, being a 4man squad. Meaning that one model in grens is "worth" more than one model drop in rifles or volks or cons. However, for that con, the pro is that they tend to fit extremely nice behind cover, same as 4man sections.

It's actually funny how every such issue is solved by Paths/IR Paths who can spot the MG and let you actually pull off a good flank. Vanilla USF in 3v3 either has to go very early nades, which is map dependent because of muni placement, or double team somewhere else. This can be problematic af when coordinating with randoms who only know how to ping spam the fuel point. Sniper is absolutely a huge issue vs good players, but I feel like 3v3 maps like Steppes can let you dominate hard with the M20 to compensate. Mortar probably not worth it early for smoke since maps are so laney, MG can just back off a bit. I'd rather go nades.

I think that Rangers should have had the following:
2 upgrades: 4xTommies or 2x M1919 (140 muni or so, locks 3rd weapon upgrade) -> close/long range weapon paths
Carbines are medium-long range
Utility: Nade + elite zook (3x max)

For the price of 350 MP and 10 pop, I'd say they would add long range flavour to other doctrines besides airborne/recon, which is sorely needed in larger modes with larger, long-range maps (where grens, volks, obers are much more dominant)
Heck, obers have much more utility and are stock (and tad more expensive).

I don't think Rangers as another long range specialist would be necessarily bad, but with Paras being available I can see why having another elite squad with either full thompsons, zooks or LMGs is too much overlap. I'd personally have liked to have seen BARs on Rangers be more useful.

Echelons should get a small buff either in utility or combat, to justify the 200 MP price. Sure they can carry zooks for late game but zooks are not free, and given how they can drop hard until vet3, you'll drop a lot of zooks.

Well to me REs with zooks are repairs + backline mines + anti-dive squads, so I don't usually bleed models with them since they're rarely fighting ahead. Maybe capping.

Changes I'd like to see in rear echelons are reverting the damage nerf and the accuracy buff so that they're more useful against Kubels, small arms penetration buff at vet 1 to help vs 221 rushes, suppressive fire having a 10muni cost added because I think it's very strong when REs get weapons like M1919 and maybe a veterancy requirements reduction of like 5%.

I think this unit is very dependent on the state of the USF early game and judging by how much USF struggles early vs min 0/1 light vehicles I think REs would be a nice tool to have if they were better against them.

...
Changes I'd like to see in rear echelons are reverting the rof nerf and the accuracy buff so that they're more useful against Kubels, ...

Once more Rear Echelons did not get a ROF nerf it was a damage nerf.

Snip

Giving them 3 elite BARs would be a nice workaround to justify the 350/10 price. On one hand you get expensive firepower boost to medium range (waiting for the couch general that fell on head when he was little to come and say "ACTHUALLY TOMMIES HAVE GOOD MEDIUM RANGE PROFILE KHKH") and a little bit long range. On the other hand, it would be expensive AF and would constantly and consistently drop (like airborne paths double bars).
I mean, the design of the officers themselves, being close range oriented, gives a want to be aggressive and snowball early. Basically only long range infantry USF has is doctrinal: Paths and paras (2 doctrines).
Sure you have M1919 doctrines which do work nicely in 1v1s. Like you've said. Echelon BAR + M1919 is decent enough.

Like all 1v1s, the amount of firepower is much lower than in teamgames. Your echelons won't be fired upon by 2 jaegers + 3 fussies + 2 grens, but pretty much (unless you've been getting owned) all engagements are mano-a-mano in terms of population. Rifle or two vs gren or two, etc.
That's why in teamgames, armour/hp/targetSize/AOE matters more than in 1v1s. If you build a Sherman and your enemy has a P4, you can damn well be sure that at minute 16 you won't get flanked by some Panther from God knows where. The amount of information you can know and be sure of is much smaller than in 3v3s.
Heck, last game I played (in replays) vs you and Tomy and a random guy that really hated that bridge in Hamburgers, there is a moment where I try to flank behind the bridge, because I saw the guy that was supposed to be in "my lane" retreat, only to literally surround myself with 4 fussies and spios from the ally.
Hence why REs can be decent enough with M1919s in 1v1s, but not in 3v3s.

How I would balance it out? Probably like you have said, revert some of the nerfs. Or straight up reduce the price/reinforce and call it a day. I mean, if today somebody would like to spam rear echelons with nades, 222s, flaks and just blobbing against it should do wonders. The rifle nades have a fuse so you can decently enough dodge it. All you would have to care about is the .50 cal locking the blob down.

The problem with USF early game is that it is by far the weakest. RE is just part of the situation.


Riflemen are overpriced for their performance. Or the other way around, the modding team buffed so much OKW and Ostheer early game that riflemen went from balanced to underperformant by far.

- They get destroyed mid to close range by Sturmpioneer for only 20 manpower more.
- Considering they delta in cost between them and Pioneer (80 manpower), they should perform the same ways vs pioneer as ST perform vs them, but that's not the case.
- They should destroy the same way volks once mid to close range as ST perform vs them for the same cost (20 manpower), but that's also not the case.
- They should destroy the same way grens once mid to close range as ST perform vs them since the cost delta is 40 manpower, but that's also not the case.


USF early game is also the slower, whenever you decide to do 2xriflemen or 3xriflemen your next unit will .

OKW early game was not buffed at all, what crack are you smoking? Starting manpower reduced, Volks cost increased compared to past patches.

I don't know how you can lose engagements so badly early game as USF. Pios absolutely get roflstomped completely at any and every range by Riflemen. Even when Pios come right around a hedge and engage at their ideal range they get stomped by Riflemen. Did you somehow confuse Pios and Ass Grenadiers?

Volks do lose significantly mid to close range. The problem is with Kubel causing lots of health damage and Sturms preventing easy close-ins, creating excellent synergy.

Grens do lose significantly mid to close range. The problem is that they have already dropped a rifle model or two from closing in. The bigger problem is with mg42. If you get one Rifle squad caught by the mg42 then your early game is pretty much game over.

I don't know how you can lose engagements so badly early game as USF.

The Kubel is uncounterable early. That's how.

OKW early game was not buffed at all, what crack are you smoking? Starting manpower reduced, Volks cost increased compared to past patches.

I don't know how you can lose engagements so badly early game as USF. Pios absolutely get roflstomped completely at any and every range by Riflemen. Even when Pios come right around a hedge and engage at their ideal range they get stomped by Riflemen. Did you somehow confuse Pios and Ass Grenadiers?

Volks do lose significantly mid to close range. The problem is with Kubel causing lots of health damage and Sturms preventing easy close-ins, creating excellent synergy.

Grens do lose significantly mid to close range. The problem is that they have already dropped a rifle model or two from closing in. The bigger problem is with mg42. If you get one Rifle squad caught by the mg42 then your early game is pretty much game over.

Who say they lose so badly? Your just doing a strawman + personal insult as main argument, as usual shall I say.
I said they don't perform in their ideal condition as much as SP performs for the same or even larger price tag difference.
OKW early game has been buffed with medic crate, SP buffed and Kubel changes while, as I stated, volks received minimum nerfs. At the same time having enable so much T1 make OKW much more oppressive while back then when T2 was the get to go their early game was less.

RE nerf has just enable more the kubel dominance vs USF, and it was highlighted during the patch preview but put aside by the modding team to reach the situation we're facing today, RE are neither good vs infantry or Kubel. Their bad at everything for an expensive price.

I hate rear echelon!
Please give upgrade of single thompson as option for 45 muni.