76mm Sherman and M4C's AP shell needs a small buff I think

Well I mean Vipper is the biggest troll on these forums which is why he has gotten banned a few times. He is basically the Balance Team mascot defending every bad decision they make and loves to derail threads.

That is rather funny coming from person who's latest posts are about how the balance team overbuffs axis units and about how crap raid section are and all that in a thread about the 76mm Sherman.

Anyway the 76mm Sherman lacks a clear definitive role. This is one aspect of the game that could use some work.

For example you have sort of a rock, paper, scissors approach with Infantry, HMGs, and Mortars which works well but then with tanks the only roles are Generalist (T-34/Panzer IV/Crommwell), Tank Destroyer, and Heavy tank with no real roles assigned to these tanks other than whoever is the best or does most damage wins.

Take shock troops for example, everyone knows that Shock Troops murder things at close range, While Infantry Sections are Max Range, while Rifleman are great at Medium Range. These types of Weapon Profiles should exist for tanks as well.
...
There have been numerous documented cases of smaller tanks/vehicles defeating big tanks at close range yet this isn't translated into COH 2 at all when the technology for different profiles exists within the game.


Take an Elephant Tank for example. A T-34 could get close to an Elephant even firing from the rear and the shots/do no damage. If tanks had weapon profiles like infantry they could assign roles to different tanks.

Maybe T-34 sucks balls long range but will shock troop vehicles close range.

So back to the 76mm Sherman it does the same role as the regular sherman which makes it pointless to make.


Now if a normal Sherman had a profile where it needed close range to be effective, 76mm sherman could be the medium range tank leaving Jackson with a long range weapon profile and the unit would at least have some form of role in mind with its design.

Lack of Role and Design make the tank in its current state extreme garbage.

The 76mm Sherman has a very clear role and design. Its role is to go toe toe with PzIVs and it does fulfill its role cost effectively.

The vanilla Sherman will probably lose to PzIV while the 76mm will probably win. If one is facing PzIV it not pointless to make 76mm Shermans actually is a good choice.

Now if that role is enough to make the commander attractive or if the role is also covered by other units it is a different story but the 76mm does have a role.

The 76mm Sherman has a very clear role and design. Its role is to go toe toe with PzIVs and it does fulfill its role cost effectively.

Pay a commander slot to have a fair chance vs enemy stock medium tank, fair enough, tho.

One issue with the 76mm Sherman design in particular is that it only works against medium spam, which in turn is only viable in 1v1 and 2v2. All other modes will see Panther, Brummbar and heavies, which the 76mm even on HVAP is not great against. Otherwise you will need a Jackson anyway, so there is no need for a 76mm Sherman.

Next, to get the most out of it against mediums, it should be on HVAP consistently. This leaves a big gap in the AI department. The 75mm Sherman is a beast against infantry, it has the HE shell for a reason: USF usually need it for the mid/late game. The 76mm does not have this option. It is "okay" at best against infantry, but for that you have to use it on the normal shell, which is not that efficient against mediums.
While the increased AT makes up for it on paper, it might not make up for it in the context of USF.


The rest is a commander issue:
Dodge truck and M3 are good in 1v1 with diminishing returns in larger modes.
Cav Rifles - not sure, but you'd usually want to focus on indirect AI in larger modes rather than CQC units.
Combined arms - Good in all modes
Mortar half track - Good primarily in 2v2 and up.


Overall this focusses the commander pretty much on 1v1 and a bit of 2v2. It is very uninteresting in all other modes. It could overall need some buffs, it is barely used at all.

One issue with the 76mm Sherman design in particular is that it only works against medium spam, which in turn is only viable in 1v1 and 2v2. All other modes will see Panther, Brummbar and heavies, which the 76mm even on HVAP is not great against. Otherwise you will need a Jackson anyway, so there is no need for a 76mm Sherman.

Next, to get the most out of it against mediums, it should be on HVAP consistently. This leaves a big gap in the AI department. The 75mm Sherman is a beast against infantry, it has the HE shell for a reason: USF usually need it for the mid/late game. The 76mm does not have this option. It is "okay" at best against infantry, but for that you have to use it on the normal shell, which is not that efficient against mediums.
While the increased AT makes up for it on paper, it might not make up for it in the context of USF.


The rest is a commander issue:
Dodge truck and M3 are good in 1v1 with diminishing returns in larger modes.
Cav Rifles - not sure, but you'd usually want to focus on indirect AI in larger modes rather than CQC units.
Combined arms - Good in all modes
Mortar half track - Good primarily in 2v2 and up.


Overall this focusses the commander pretty much on 1v1 and a bit of 2v2. It is very uninteresting in all other modes. It could overall need some buffs, it is barely used at all.

From 2vs2 perspective:

- WC51 is only effective vs OKW early game, You don't have enough room vs Ostheer to use it effectively. And then since you need 45 munitions to get the .50 the windows of effectiveness is extremly short unlike the UC.
- M3 is useless in majority of cases, better having 2 ambulances, one in your base, one on the frontline for the same cost than 1 ambulance + 1 m3. Unless you want to try hard with m3/zook.
- Mortar HT is a joke costing too much fuel or/and munition if you want to use the WP round. For what it provides better investing in a regular mortar and keep the fuel for something really useful.
- Cav rifle have their use on some specific maps, probably the best selling point of the doctrine atm.
- Combined arms requires an extra layer of micro of already micro intensive units. Combined arms is ok with the Pershing because the pershing can stand a bit on its own while you micro your infantry, that's not the case with shermans.
- Sherman 76 is bad on 2vs2 because its not better than a P4 and get bullied by panthers. So yeah you scared the first P4 built because you have better penetration but but then its not like you can chase it enough to kill it anyway.
-a You aren't necesarily in position to kill the P4. Just scare it off.
-b your AI is shit, unlike the P4 that can simply avoid you and keep a pak close by.
-c Panther join the party and your tank is rended useless.

Pay a commander slot to have a fair chance vs enemy stock medium tank, fair enough, tho.

Lets look at that stats:
PzIV vs T-34/76 at range 35, PzIV 86% chance to win
PzIV vs Sherman at range 35, PzIV 62% chance to win
PzIV vs Sherman 76mm at range 35, 76mm 78% chance to win

So yes it is fair and 76mm is simply not trash/useless as people claim.

As for the commander being "fair" or not I would say that is as "fair" as Panzer J for Ostheer.

Does that make commander good? no it does not.

On the other hand USF have several issues like:
1) USF have access to 5 different version of Sherman and their stock Sherman is a very quite efficient tank. As I have already pointed out making all 5 version worth building and balanced is a nightmare.

2) Access to one of the best TDs in game that work equally good vs light/medium/heavy and super heavies tank leaving little room for other AT vehicles.

3) In the current implementation overlap between commanders like mechanized/rifle/(and urban assault) all providing a superior medium tank.

If there is a need to make mechanized company more attractive (and the commander does seem to unpopular) that is not buffing the 76mm which is a cost efficient unit.


Now keep in mind that I am responding to claims that "the 76mm does not have role/it is trash".
If you agree with these claim feel free to explain why but if you disagree, I suggest you argue with the people who made this claims and not me.

I'm not sure why all of you are focusing on medium vs medium.

75mm Sherman is well known for a good AI. Thanks to it's AoE. So even if it's a bit mediocre vs tank, USF can delay enemy and prep Jackson to deal with tank.

76mm OTOH, used to deal not-so-bad AI thx to it's RoF, but after the nerf, what it has is main gun with less effective AoE than t34/76(Not to menting P4).

T34 beats RoF after vet up(No radio net calcuated).

And it's not like HVAP or normal armor piercing gives steady high chance vs medium.

So there is just no point of going 76 instead of 75. And commander itself has been nerfed to the ground so there is no other skill that can compesnate it.

sure, nerfed almost everything doctrine could give and call it balance.
Very nice.
Balance team dont care about community voice. When thing gone wrong they just saying " out of scope " LOL.
Back to M4 valiants. Mechanize company offer unity choices for player:
+ Normal M4 with bulldozer as meatshield (USF lacking this role).
+ M4 76mm for combat effectivess. Now USF can head to head against Pz4 in long run rather to wait for M36.
As we know. Weh get medium tank faster than USF. M4 76 is a best choice to catch up with.
Right now, Mechanize company ic completely dead. From 08/2021 to 03/2022, it sit at botton zone of USF company pick. This is not what we want.
Balance team was too toxic, inconsistanly about their point of view.

Balance team was too toxic, inconsistanly about their point of view.

Very correct, and it applies to all the non-vanilla factions. Right now all the doctrines suck barring a few which have created the """"meta"""" of a faction. USF is Airborne, UKF is Lend Lease Assault, OKW is JLI one (can't remember) and Breakthrough.

Thank god the vanilla factions keep their good balance and mechanics so they can work regardless of doctrine. One can meme with Festung Support (absolutely useless in almost any game) for OST or Urban Warfare (the one with the fallback point on build) for SOV and nobody bats an eye... try to use Commando or Special Weapons on UKF it's insta gg. Same thing with USF...

I hope COH3 will work better.

Next, to get the most out of it against mediums, it should be on HVAP consistently. This leaves a big gap in the AI department. The 75mm Sherman is a beast against infantry, it has the HE shell for a reason: USF usually need it for the mid/late game. The 76mm does not have this option. It is "okay" at best against infantry, but for that you have to use it on the normal shell, which is not that efficient against mediums.
While the increased AT makes up for it on paper, it might not make up for it in the context of USF.

Meanwhile you look at Easy 8, which for a slight fuel premium you get superior AT compared to 76MM AP shell and as far as I know similar AI without having to swap shells. 76MM at Vet 3 **in theory** has a pretty high ceiling but I've found it pretty hard to get it there without struggling in the mid to the early-late game. I think you could probably help out 76MM by giving it the old Panzergren/Guards Veterancy fix by shifting/spliting it's Penetration bonuses earlier than Vet 3. That way it scales more smoothly and feels more worth it if it's your first tank.

Meanwhile you look at Easy 8, which for a slight fuel premium you get superior AT compared to 76MM AP shell and as far as I know similar AI without having to swap shells. 76MM at Vet 3 **in theory** has a pretty high ceiling but I've found it pretty hard to get it there without struggling in the mid to the early-late game. I think you could probably help out 76MM by giving it the old Panzergren/Guards Veterancy fix by shifting/spliting it's Penetration bonuses earlier than Vet 3. That way it scales more smoothly and feels more worth it if it's your first tank.

Outside of 1vs1, I can't see any more used for the Easy8 than 76, its better than the 76 but still alien in USF roster.

Outside of 1vs1, I can't see any more used for the Easy8 than 76, its better than the 76 but still alien in USF roster.

Rifle company remains popular in 2vs2.

But the real question is why this an issue? There is not reason to expect a commander and doctrinal unit to be popular across all modes.

In 3vs3 and 4vs4 commander with artillery option become more popular and that is fine. It is the same with Priest that does not see much use in 1vs1 and that is hardly an issue.

Rifle company remains popular in 2vs2.

No its not, stop derivating stat into your personal opinion, being on USF roster doesn't mean people use it.

No its not, stop derivating stat into your personal opinion, being on USF roster doesn't mean people use it.

Yea, I guess your theory that people have Rifle company in their load in 2vs2 games but never use it makes sense. And when they do use it they probably never use Easy8 anyway.

I guess they like the commander's icon so they add him in their load out for that..

(and yes I am being sarcastic).

My Point remain:
Commanders are not meant to equally popular across all modes and that is actually a good thing.(edited)

https://coh2stats.com/stats?range=month&statsSource=all&type=2v2&race=usf&timeStamp=1646092800

From July 2021 to March 2022, Armor company, Rifleman company and mechanize stayed at the botton of USF commander pick. From all player to top 200. 2v2 mode (editted).
in 1v1, Rifle company got a middle place, still not the most popular company pick.

3 doctrine promote agressive, combine arm with M4 valiants yet stayed in botton zone. So sad.
Thank god only M4 bulldozer on Urban actually worked.

https://coh2stats.com/stats?range=month&statsSource=all&type=2v2&race=usf&timeStamp=1646092800

From July 2021 to March 2022, Armor company, Rifleman company and mechanize stayed at the botton of USF commander pick. From all player to top 200. 2v2 mode (editted).
in 1v1, Rifle company got a middle place, still not the most popular company pick.

3 doctrine promote agressive, combine arm with M4 valiants yet stayed in botton zone. So sad.

What I personally find sadder is that Airborne company is a top pick across all modes.

Thank god only M4 bulldozer on Urban actually worked.

And that is another issue, why would any one go for a superior version of Sherman in team-games when one can get both a superior version of Sherman and access to Rocket artillery (and elite infatry) in single commander?