Since the Moderators do not like where this debate is going I close it by simply saying that if in your opinion the scouting capability of the Stuart is trivial issue, you should point that to Kurobane who bought up the issue and use it an to support his claim that Stuart is UP instead of trying to prove to me that Luch is a better scout that Stuart.
Again if in your opinion USF have sufficient scouting option you should be pointing that out to Kurobane according to whom USF need Stuart as scout because they are lacking scouting option, instead of trying to argue with me that axis have stronger scouting options.
Finally if in your opinion Stuart is UP and sees little action I suggest you debate the issue with other people who point out the exact opposite from the first pages of this thread.
(check post #15 for instance)
As for the performance of T-70 it is not simply "my" view but it is a commonly accepted view, T-70 is considered power spike in the Soviet faction.
There are a few posts stating the stuart is perfect or in good spot. Most are either negative or meh. So what you say that most agree that its fine doesnt show here imo.
I see what i did regarding kurobanes comments, my bad. i ended up taking it up with you because of the way you post. You zoom in on tiny snippits of others posts and go out of your way to prove them wrong. Then you dodge questions and insert stuff barely or not related.
Please stop derailing threads over small things. Same goes for me.
So yeah we should leave it here.
While this keeps coming up every now and then, the M20, at least in its current iteration, is by no means better than the Stuart AI-wise. In any typical in-game scenario (engagement range of 25 m onward) quite the opposite it true.
Almost every weapon in the game has a weapon profile where the Far Range is equal to the Max Range of the weapon. This is not the case with the Stuart.
The Stuart has the main gun and its hull fired machine gun. The issue is here is that the Far Range for the main gun is set to 30 while it has a maximum range of 40. From 30-40 it has severe accuracy penalties making the main gun useless vs anything that isn't a vehicle (vehicles have much larger target sizes allowing the main gun to actually hit something)
Both T-70 and Luchs have Far Ranges = to the maximum range of the gun hence why these vehicles are able to do damage at Max Range while the Stuart shoots paint balls that tickle.
30 Range or less the stuart actually does damage however that puts you within range of Panzerfausts (35)
This is why the M20 is much better than the Stuart it can actually fire at max range (40) and do damage while being outside of the range of Panzershrek/Faust while also having smoke as well making it far superior as a bleed machine.
Stuart
M20
Luchs
T-70
(-1 basically means that the range calculation is disabled hence why the T-70 is as strong as it is)
AEC
Now if only the far range for the Stuart was 40 like every other vehicle in the game (Minus the T-70 because it has its own special BS) then the stuart could actually hit something. Until they fix that unless you plan to go melee range with a Stuart go M20 and save yourself the fuel while your at it.
The Stuart has the main gun and its hull fired machine gun. The issue is here is that the Far Range for the main gun is set to 30 while it has a maximum range of 40. From 30-40 it has severe accuracy penalties making the main gun useless vs anything that isn't a vehicle (vehicles have much larger target sizes allowing the main gun to actually hit something)
I'll put some clarification here:
The Stuart has indeed a very unique and also odd main gun profile, but what you state above is partially wrong.
There is no accuracy penalty above far range. The accuracy will stay at the far accuracy, which is 0.025 for the Stuart. The Stuart has overall lower accuracy at mid to long range, this is due to the unique profile. But not due to some additiinal penalty. Accuracy does not matter against infantry at any range, not even point blank. The statement saying the gun was bad at 30+ meters against 'anything that isn't a vehicle' due to the low accuracy does not make sense. Scatter is what really matters against infantry at all ranges.
Second correction, the -1 to my knowledge for the T70 does not mean that no calvulation will be done, but that the values will be infered from the min and max range. It is basically the same as stating the normal 0-20-40 profile.
^ then why ONLY Staurt got 30 range far instead of 40 ?.
I assume because Relic.
The previous engine shot ability was very close range. I assume they wanted to make the Stuart a rather close ranged tank for some reason, and the profile is just one thing that survived.
I assume because Relic.
The previous engine shot ability was very close range. I assume they wanted to make the Stuart a rather close ranged tank for some reason, and the profile is just one thing that survived.
Stuart was a monster vs infantry back then in exchange of poor vision and low range, you could simply build 2 and gg vs Oshteer. Then they nerfed it to the ground without adjusting the downsides and called it balanced!
Then they nerfed it to the ground without adjusting the downsides and called it balanced!
The nerf to Stuart AI come with buff to Stuart AT.
"Stuart
We felt that the Stuart was over-performing in its role as an anti-infantry unit and as a strong light vehicle counter. Furthermore, its stun rounds allowed it to hunt down light vehicles that were designed to counter it. Thus, we have made the following changes to solidify its role as primarily an anti-light vehicle unit."
The nerf to Stuart AI come with buff to Stuart AT.
"Stuart
We felt that the Stuart was over-performing in its role as an anti-infantry unit and as a strong light vehicle counter. Furthermore, its stun rounds allowed it to hunt down light vehicles that were designed to counter it. Thus, we have made the following changes to solidify its role as primarily an anti-light vehicle unit."
He forgot to link the changes, unusual from him or simply because it shows the nerf. Usual price increase + triple stat nerf. Note the penetration increase like they had to make something positive but at the same time useless in the list...
Manpower cost increased from 240 to 270
Main gun damage vs infantry set to -25%
Main gun penetration increased from 65/50/45 to 75/60/55
MG Accuracy from 0.6/0.45/0.25 to 0.4/0.3/0.16667 (Hull & Coaxial)
MG Incremental accuracy from 1.04 to 1 (Hull & Coaxial).
Stun rounds only disables weapons and sight. Does not affect movement.
Veterancy requirements reduced from 1170/2340/4680 to 870/1740/3480
He forgot to link the changes, unusual from him or simply because it shows the nerf. Usual price increase + triple stat nerf. Note the penetration increase like they had to make something positive but at the same time useless in the list...
Manpower cost increased from 240 to 270
Main gun damage vs infantry set to -25%
Main gun penetration increased from 65/50/45 to 75/60/55
MG Accuracy from 0.6/0.45/0.25 to 0.4/0.3/0.16667 (Hull & Coaxial)
MG Incremental accuracy from 1.04 to 1 (Hull & Coaxial).
Stun rounds only disables weapons and sight. Does not affect movement.
Veterancy requirements reduced from 1170/2340/4680 to 870/1740/3480
Does that say anything about having "poor vision and low range"?
Accuracy does not matter against infantry at any range, not even point blank.
Scatter is what really matters against infantry at all ranges.
Only change here is that I set accuracy to 100%. No change to scatter or anything else.
Saying that accuracy does not matter is simply false. Company of Heroes 2 has different projectile types within the modding tools and you can individually customize or create your own behavior for projectiles such as creating a projectile that causes Rear Armor hits regardless of where you shoot at an enemy vehicle.
Scatter is mostly used to define the parameters around AOE (Area of Effect) and how accurate those AOE shots are within the initial shot.
Most vehicles are designed around this as a solution to problems involved with projectiles hitting terrain such as the Ostwind back in the day if anyone remembers that. Rather than take the time to actually fix projectile animations and terrain issues (many vehicles have different projectiles so they would have had to have dozens of projectiles to fix) Relic took the lazy way out and just decided for the projectiles to hit the ground and have it do AOE damage as their band aid solution to the problem since COH 2 is essentially a mod of COH 1 and they couldn't be bothered to put in an ounce of effort into the game compared to COH1.
This is not an issue for infantry as the bullets have a universal projectile and they only had to make sure that worked as intended as they could just "band aid" the rest of the projectiles in the game.
Now back to the Stuart. The Stuart uses the same projectile as the T-70. In fact both are almost exact clones with some slight differences.
Stuart AOE = 1.75
T-70 AOE = 2
Panzer IV = 2.5
Tiger = 4.0
When testing With the same Scatter Values as the T-70 the Stuart is still rather bad.
Testing with with the same AOE as the T-70 showed similar results
The T-70 having -1 in its Range Profile basically makes it use the Near Accuracy most if not all of the time.
When testing the Stuart with -1 in its Range Profile being the only modifier changed suddenly the Stuart is on T-70 levels. Like night and day difference.
So the conclusion here is that the Stuart suffers greatly from essentially always being at FAR range due to its shite Range profile while the T-70 is almost always at Near Range thus making it significantly more potent due to the large increase in accuracy between Near and Far.
....
So the conclusion here is that the Stuart suffers greatly from essentially always being at FAR range due to its shite Range profile while the T-70 is almost always at Near Range thus making it significantly more potent due to the large increase in accuracy between Near and Far.
Not really.
1) Accuracy of 37mm gun is 0.05/0.0375/0.025 that mean in best case 1 shot out of 20 will actually score a hit vs an entity of target Size 1.
2) Stuart has modifier that reduce damage vs infatry:
Main gun damage vs infantry set to 0.75 so even a direct hit will do 60 damage.
Note that T-70 does 40 damage.
And here are the scatter values:
Scatter T-70
Scatter angle 7.5
Distance offset 0.15
Distance ratio 1 Distance max 2.5 with an AOE of 2
Scatter Stuart
Scatter angle 5
Distance offset 0.15
Distance ratio 1
Distance max 4.2 with an AOE of 1.75
With all due respect, but it seems you don't quite understand how accuracy and scatter / AoE work and interact in this game.
Sure you'll see drastic results if you set accuracy to 1 as in the video you provided, but, as Vipper and Hannibal already pointed out above, accuracy for tank guns is usually just a fraction of 1. So the difference between hitting 1 out of 20 shots (e.g. near acc of 0.05) and 1 out of 40 (far acc of 0.025) has virtually zero impact on the overall DPS of any tank gun, simply because the chance to hit is abysmally low in any case.
OTOH scatter and AoE profile, which determine how much damage the remaining 95-97.5% of all shots fired that miss the target (i.e. failed accuracy roll) deal are much more important.
The accuracy profile of the Stuart may be weird and rather the exception than the norm, but I fail to see how this would make any difference in terms of AI.
Only change here is that I set accuracy to 100%. No change to scatter or anything else.
Saying that accuracy does not matter is simply false. Company of Heroes 2 has different projectile types within the modding tools and you can individually customize or create your own behavior for projectiles such as creating a projectile that causes Rear Armor hits regardless of where you shoot at an enemy vehicle.
The chance to hit between any entities of this game is defined as accuracy*target_size. As others pointed out, vehicles have very low accuracy, but hit each other because of their huge target size. Their chance to hit any infantry model is usually far below 5%. So yes, my sentence of saying accuracy does not matter is indeed an oversimplification, but in realistically only about 3-4% of all cases at worst. The vast majority of vehicle vs infantry shots (>95% as others pointed out) will be scatter, the effectiveness of which is determined by the AoE and scatter values of the gun. You could see this by checking TDs: They have higher accuracy than any other tank, yet their AI performance is pretty shitty. Because accuracy does not (really) matter, and that is what I said.
Scatter is mostly used to define the parameters around AOE (Area of Effect) and how accurate those AOE shots are within the initial shot.
I am not fully sure if I understand you correctly here. I think I do and I think you're saying the right thing, I'll post this anyway just to avoid any confusion down the line:
Scatter has nothing directly to do with AoE. The way this game works is the following:
First, a direct shot is calculated by the formula above. If this fails, the shot will randomly scatter depending on the gun values. I made a detailed post about how this works previously. Around the new impact, AoE is applied. This AoE can be huge like in the case of the ST or very small in the case of TDs. That's why TDs are shitty at AI, despite having good accuracy, despite having fairly normal scatter values: Because their chance to actually apply damage to a model is tiny, because their AoE is tiny.
I don't really get what you mean by the "initial shot". All shots work the same, neglecting some buggier units like casemates where the initial shot is indeed less accurate.
Most vehicles are designed around this as a solution to problems involved with projectiles hitting terrain such as the Ostwind back in the day if anyone remembers that. Rather than take the time to actually fix projectile animations and terrain issues (many vehicles have different projectiles so they would have had to have dozens of projectiles to fix) Relic took the lazy way out and just decided for the projectiles to hit the ground and have it do AOE damage as their band aid solution to the problem since COH 2 is essentially a mod of COH 1 and they couldn't be bothered to put in an ounce of effort into the game compared to COH1.
Not sure about earlier patches of the Ostwind, but all AI vehicles that shoot projectiles work like this: They need good AoE. Technically, you could just give them higher accuracy and worse AoE and get similar DPS, but obviously this needs to be done depending on the calibre: A normal tank not really doing any AoE would just look weird. Those tanks had AoE in real life, so the game needs to model it like that. The Ostwind has a 3,7 cm canon. Those canons had fragmentation shots, modeling them like an MG would be weird.
Relic has indeed a lot of bandaids for terrain collision issues, but giving AoE to weapons is not one of them. Letting projectiles phase through objects definitely is, though.
This is not an issue for infantry as the bullets have a universal projectile and they only had to make sure that worked as intended as they could just "band aid" the rest of the projectiles in the game.
I don't know what this is supposed to mean.
To my knowledge, small arms are not even modeled as a projectile. The tracers on screen is just visual goodies. Damage is applied instantly, these work like "hit scan" weapons in shooters. MGs on vehicles use the same hit scan mechanic.
Now back to the Stuart. The Stuart uses the same projectile as the T-70. In fact both are almost exact clones with some slight differences.
Stuart AOE = 1.75
T-70 AOE = 2
Panzer IV = 2.5
Tiger = 4.0
When testing With the same Scatter Values as the T-70 the Stuart is still rather bad.
Testing with with the same AOE as the T-70 showed similar results
It took me a while to figure out where you got those values from. But this is not how it works, really. You've just picked the AoE radius, which is literally only one out of many stats to determine the overall AoE damage. It is true that units with large AoE ranges are obviously supposed to be better at AoE, but it does really not say anything by itself, because it does not tell how much damage is applied at that range or how the AoE curve looks like at lower ranges.
I have no idea where you make up claims like "It is around 2 AOE or above when you start seeing good Anti-Infantry performance". That's absolutely subjective. If you really want to criticize me above for neglecting a ~3% chance to hit infantry in an accuracy roll, you can't just put out a generalized statement like that. We've seen multiple units being buffed because their gun AoE was not good enough despite exceeding an "AOE of 2". There's so many factors playing into this.
E.g. these are the scatter area values and AoE values for both tanks:
MG damage comes on top of that. The T70 is better in AI because it less scatter area, a more reliable chance to hit and can actually chase way better. Needless to say it also fires quicker.
AoE is debatable. I'd say it is overall better, although we can semi-regularly see the Stuart wipe 2-3 models on a clumped squad due to the high near AoE damage.
The T-70 having -1 in its Range Profile basically makes it use the Near Accuracy most if not all of the time.
When testing the Stuart with -1 in its Range Profile being the only modifier changed suddenly the Stuart is on T-70 levels. Like night and day difference.
So the conclusion here is that the Stuart suffers greatly from essentially always being at FAR range due to its shite Range profile while the T-70 is almost always at Near Range thus making it significantly more potent due to the large increase in accuracy between Near and Far.
What is T70 level? What did you test exactly? And how?
I somehow doubt what you say. I have seen the T70 miss shots at other vehicles while being static, although that should barely be the case according to what you wrote. All other stat sites also report the stats differently.
Are you going to deviate the subjet once more to cover youd lack of arguments?
Are going to try the "easy" way out by playing the usual "run out of arguments derailing card" or are you going to admit that your description of Stuart performance is false?
(Actually is simpler to admit you got something wrong.)
So do you stand by your claim or have you realized it was false?
Are going to try the "easy" way out by playing the usual "run out of arguments derailing card" or are you going to admit that your description of Stuart performance is false?
(Actually is simpler to admit you got something wrong.)
What don't you understand when I say that at the realize of the extension the Stuart was a monster vs infantry but with low vision and low range. What do you expect to find in a patch not about it? You only find that its AI has been nerfed to the ground but it kept its low vision and low range.
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