Pioneers vs Rear Echelon

[Don't know if this is Balance or Gameplay section]

So I've one question having played plenty of games, where I learned to fear pioneers. However, given how cheap they are, have access to flamers, repair fast and overall are much more competent units compared to Rear Echelon, I've been left wondering:

Why are rear echelon so weak in combat, yet cost 200 MP?


I have done the following test 4 times, 3 yesterday (after my rifles charged from behind the sight blocker to green cover pios on Redball... it was a 3 second run to be in the same cover the pios were.... and rifles lost that, bottom VP redball), and once today for the screenshots.

Basically I've put rear echelon behind green cover and charged with pios on them. I dragged the selection to green cover and let it play out.

Pioneers won all 4 times with 2 models remaining, pretty much identical health in all 4 fights, as seen in the screenshots:






Rear echelon started firing the moment they got in firing range, from green cover, pios ran over neutral cover, got to the green cover the rear echelon were in (completely static), and still won HARD.

So my question is... why are rear echelon so amazingly bad at combat?
They have poor repair speed (thanks to repair crews)
They have no proper sandbags. The tank traps are harder to destroy, but also harder to position properly against MGs, as 5 man rifles will DERP out hard running around tank traps to be in green cover. Not to mention that unless there are 3 tank traps, most of the times, one model will be "outside" of the green cover.
They lose to each and every combat unit there it, from early to late.

The only saving grace is the ability to carry zooks (100 munis), which is not that big of a deal, given how easy they go down, meaning that at most times, you'll be able to fire off one volley of rockets (that tend to miss or not penetrate), before retreating (and losing sweeper for some time). Well, that and the fact that they don't have to build structures... but then again, given how they lose every fight, they are bound to retreat to base where they "could" build sth.

So why are rear echelon so damn sh***y and relatively expensive. Do they have some magical property I'm forgetting about or is the ability to carry zooks a justification enough for their poor combat performance?

Apparently their ability to make use of a variety of weapon upgrades makes them potentially way too MP efficient to use in large quantities, supposedly making them able to replace riflemen.

So they according to that made them 30MP costlier than the Sov CE despite the latter actually performing better in all aspects

...
So my question is... why are rear echelon so amazingly bad at combat?

They are simply not amazingly bad in combat.

They have poor repair speed (thanks to repair crews)

RE have the same base repair speed as CE/pioneer/RO.
Being able to repair with crew does not make RE repair slower.

On paper, because they have valley fire. Which is kinda over-nerfed, but as a niche rifle supporting ability some times can work also they have nice smoke ability.

Also kinda because at vet 3 they are 5 men squad and vet2 provides some combat bonuses.

In practice its just the way they are supposed to be cost vise, because some of the commanders give them strong upgrades (riflenades\flames) on top of the fact that they can have zooks (which will bring them to vet 3 really fast making them 5 men AT squad).

Other then that, imo cost arent reflecting their performance, rather cost is based on what can be done with REs and what upgrades they can have.

Apparently their ability to make use of a variety of weapon upgrades makes them potentially way too MP efficient to use in large quantities, supposedly making them able to replace riflemen.

So they according to that made them 30MP costlier than the Sov CE despite the latter actually performing better in all aspects

Fair enough, but in all honesty, does anyone really spam rear echelons to rush weapon racks to spend hundreds of munitions? In theory, sure, rear echelons can be a menace... if all the stars align and the Lady of the Lake blesses RNG.

I don't know in which universe they could replace rifles. No snare, excruciatingly bad in combat (seen one rear echelon flank a lone MG42, and the MG42 crew, the other 3 models actually, went toe to toe with vet0 echelons and actually bled them, almost winning the fight), close range weapon profile, 4 man. And the main fact that they can get charged over neutral cover to green cover and lose. Maybe, just maybe, if you played 1v1 and avoided all combat, just using mass numbers and short build time to cap points and stretch your opponent until you get BARs or whatever.

On paper, because they have valley fire. Which is kinda over-nerfed, but as a niche rifle supporting ability some times can work.

Also kinda because at vet 3 they are 5 men squad and vet2 provides some combat bonuses.

In practice its just the way they are supposed to be cost vise, because some of the commanders give them strong upgrades (riflenades\flames) on top of the fact that they can have zooks (which will bring them to vet 3 really fast making them 5 men AT squad).

Other then that, imo cost arent reflecting their performance, rather cost is based on what can be done with REs and what upgrades they can have.

True, but those are all commander options.
The flamer is in a piss poor commander outside of some niche 1v1 games where E8 can be useful. The rifle nades are in a good commander, but seen it in action in plenty of games. Rifle nades look scary, but ultimately rarely bleed or force retreats. Can only really be deadly if the squad is clumped up given how it does 40 dmg. Seen it on plenty of allies, trying that build but realizing that rifle nade on echelons is as useful as is an SMG on a sniper against decent opponents.

Fair enough, but in all honesty, does anyone really spam rear echelons to rush weapon racks to spend hundreds of munitions? In theory, sure, rear echelons can be a menace... if all the stars align and the Lady of the Lake blesses RNG.

I don't know in which universe they could replace rifles. No snare, excruciatingly bad in combat (seen one rear echelon flank a lone MG42, and the MG42 crew, the other 3 models actually, went toe to toe with vet0 echelons and actually bled them, almost winning the fight), close range weapon profile, 4 man. And the main fact that they can get charged over neutral cover to green cover and lose. Maybe, just maybe, if you played 1v1 and avoided all combat, just using mass numbers and short build time to cap points and stretch your opponent until you get BARs or whatever.

Yeah in practice it actually makes no sense seeing how Royal Engineers cost 10MP more but can upgrade and become a somewhat strong close-mid range squad with vet 3 and Vickers-K LMGs and actually have a snare ontop of that.Any smart OKW/Wehr will just get early light/medium armor and bleed you dry of MP if you try to replace Rifles with Rear Echelons.

There was a time when RE spam was viable and things where pretty ugly, so I am not sure what some people expect from R.E. It not as as if spamming stock engineer units is a great tactic for any faction.

As for the "test" it does not really say much. I would a expect a similar results if CE where behind cover instead of RE.

One has also have to keep in mind that RE have access to smoke grenades and rifle-grenades in fighting position and combat bonus from vet 1.

REs suck and the only funny thing about them is the double rifle grenade that they get in fighting positions and urban assault

Its just a lot of little things.

First, REs continue to get combat bonuses as they vet while every other Engineer other than Sturms doesn't. While they aren't huge buffs, they are noticeable, and mean the squad scales a lot better vs mainlines than the other Engineers.

Second, USF doesn't get mines and has self repair. This frees REs up a lot more than the Engineers of the other factions, and usually means you get an extra squad to cap with and add fire support.

Third is just the easy access to double heavy weapons. (without locking the sweeper no less) They can bring way more firepower to the field than anything other than Royal Engineers. No one else has such a convenient place to put double handheld AT Guns without wrecking the AI of a good mainline squad.

Fourth is just the Smoke Grenade. People get too caught up in how bad Volley Fire is and ignore this, but being able to smoke an MG early is a huge advantage that no other Engineer can do.

I won't pretend they are my favorite Engineer, but they aren't bad. They were nerfed at one point because RE spam was too good, and suffer for it a bit nowadays. But, While I'll always hold that the USF starting unit should have been a scout or proto-pathfinder, I can live with REs in their current form as well.

Its just a lot of little things.

First, REs continue to get combat bonuses as they vet while every other Engineer other than Sturms doesn't. While they aren't huge buffs, they are noticeable, and mean the squad scales a lot better vs mainlines than the other Engineers.

Second, USF doesn't get mines and has self repair. This frees REs up a lot more than the Engineers of the other factions, and usually means you get an extra squad to cap with and add fire support.

Third is just the easy access to double heavy weapons. (without locking the sweeper no less) They can bring way more firepower to the field than anything other than Royal Engineers. No one else has such a convenient place to put double handheld AT Guns without wrecking the AI of a good mainline squad.

Fourth is just the Smoke Grenade. People get too caught up in how bad Volley Fire is and ignore this, but being able to smoke an MG early is a huge advantage that no other Engineer can do.

I won't pretend they are my favorite Engineer, but they aren't bad. They were nerfed at one point because RE spam was too good, and suffer for it a bit nowadays. But, While I'll always hold that the USF starting unit should have been a scout or proto-pathfinder, I can live with REs in their current form as well.

Agreed for the most part except the smoke. Early smoke means early nade tech means delaying the AAHT (at least what I play in 90% of games).
Double heavy weapons. Ok argument. My counterargument is that it's only useful against light vehicles --> At that stage you want AT gun and BARs rather than double zook on echelons, otherwise Volks, spios, grens, etc... eat you alive.

Later on, as the game progresses, it's sort of an ANTI-DIVE mechanic, given how there are no proper mines in stock USF. You get a couple of zooks on echelons, and P4 dives won't be as free as you'd think. Sure zooks won't pen frontally, but dives usually include exposing the rear.

But my main issue is not late nor anything like that, it's the fact that at the start of the game, they can be displaced by another engineer unit that charges across neutral terrain, without actually taking much bleed. Those starting engagements dictate A LOT in teamgames. In the case of Across the Rheine, it means that charging the now entrenched 2 model pio with rifles spells doom, because there will be an MG behind it, and pios have 42 vision, so it's easy to shut down a sector. Not to mention....

Do the same test with rifles charging onto pioneers in green cover, and see how rifles melt (and you'll want to charge into cover otherwise the MG will pin you due to idiotic map design).

So you lose control of the sector and possibly the whole fuel/VP point, all because at the beginning, one rear echelon behind green cover, loses HARD against a pio charging it.


Of course, in the end, such things are mainly 3v3 and 4v4 problem where pure firepower is the main concern, not the ability to cap other points (which your ally will deal with).


Scenario I've witnessed many-a-time:

You rush and entrench your echelon into a good cover position on fuel. Rifles are running to help. Pio charges your entrenched position, wins, displaces rear echelon. 2 model pio is capping and behind them is an MG42 locking down a sector, pio spots you first. You can risk a charge, time it between MG42 bursts, you will lose one model of rifles charging pios, but pios will need to retreat, MG42 will keep hammering away at you and by the time your 2nd rifle squad arrives, their grenediers arrive and all they have to do is keep hammering away at a distance since rifles are sh** at long range while MG42 and grens are not == Lost sector (that's what I've seen each and every top 100 OST player do, on 3v3 maps as most of them are lane-y. Not to mention that on most 3v3 maps, space to flank is non existent and pios 42 starting sight secures them the early oppression if they are not sloth-like in rotating the MG.

I would improve rear echelon starting firepower and reduce veterancy bonuses, so that they will lose to spios when they charge them, but won't lose to pios charging them, which are much cheaper than spios.

your mistake was using rear echelon alone. the rear Echelon as a "bonus" because despite everything being a USF support unit it has a crew of vehicles to repair them and doesn't need to build base ever the best function that the rear Echelon has at the beginning of the is to support the marines . using them alone to take one as essential as Fuel is too risky. always have a rifleman capturing next to where the back echelon is capturing and at the slightest enemy engaging a sign of something see the riflemen for support.

your mistake was using rear echelon alone. the rear Echelon as a "bonus" because despite everything being a USF support unit it has a crew of vehicles to repair them and doesn't need to build base ever the best function that the rear Echelon has at the beginning of the is to support the marines . using them alone to take one as essential as Fuel is too risky. always have a rifleman capturing next to where the back echelon is capturing and at the slightest enemy engaging a sign of something see the riflemen for support.

Please tell me how to make rifles sprint at 200% speed to get to the frontline faster than a pio + mg42. No fu***** sh** sherlock that they are not a mainline unit. That's not the question, the question is why are rear echelon so extremely weak STARTING OUT.

Please tell me how to make rifles sprint at 200% speed to get to the frontline faster than a pio + mg42. No fu***** sh** sherlock that they are not a mainline unit. That's not the question, the question is why are rear echelon so extremely weak STARTING OUT.

has already been answered. Do not send the rear echelon alone fired at the front to the fuel without the fighters capturing at the adjacent point or going to the same capture point as the rear echelon. They are really weak and consider that they will always lose at x1 if the opponent has not passed through some penalty ground on defense like a river before getting close to you. Rear echelon weren't meant to take on anything alone in the early game. I play this way and never lose an early checkpoint against a lone pioneer. They usually send him in for vision and with the MG 42 close behind to do the dirty work.

...seen one rear echelon flank a lone MG42, and the MG42 crew, the other 3 models actually, went toe to toe with vet0 echelons and actually bled them, almost winning the fight...

Since this is not the first time this is brought up I suggest provide some evidence of this because it seem highly unlikely.

I don't play a ton of 3v3, but for 4v4 I personally just don't see lone REs vs lone Pios very often there. Its much more my full force vs your full force style engagements. YMMV.

Personally I also don't bother rushing the fuel with the REs. I find it nearly impossible to beat an MG42 that early on, so just grabbing my more basic caps makes more sense to me. I'll come back and pressure it when I have a larger force of Rifles, Smoke, (Mortar or Grenade) and the Ambo for forward reinforce. (usually minute 3 or so) My early REs mostly focus on securing VPs and putting down tank traps and wire, then get pressed into MG bait so I can figure out exactly where it is.

has already been answered. Do not send the rear echelon alone fired at the front to the fuel without the fighters capturing at the adjacent point or going to the same capture point as the rear echelon. They are really weak and consider that they will always lose at x1 if the opponent has not passed through some penalty ground on defense like a river before getting close to you. Rear echelon weren't meant to take on anything alone in the early game. I play this way and never lose an early checkpoint against a lone pioneer. They usually send him in for vision and with the MG 42 close behind to do the dirty work.

I think you're misunderstanding the topic, the question isn't if RE are bad or why they are bad, but why they cost so much for being that bad.

RE were nerfed some time ago (april 2016) because one player used to spam them efficiently and win games in auto-match then balance team being what it is they applied the usual hammer nerf on them not trying at all to re-balance them.

Rear Echelons

We have scaled up Rear echelons up slightly to reduce spam.
Rear echelons cost up from 160 to 200
Rear echelon rifle damage up from 8 to 10

I like the slightly.

Then they received smoke as a nerf for USF since rifle lost it at the same time.
Then they've been nerfed again with the no dual M1919 for them and rifle (which was then true initial problem)
Then they lost 2 dps for a bit more accuracy. The true real reason was they were too good vs light vehicle with their 10 dps and no accuracy penalty. Kubel would melt and they could deal some damage to a 222 behind cover. another nerf in reality.
Then they received with the new doctrine the grenade launcher.

Somewhere in between they also received the flamer upgrade because removed from riflemen (another nerf), which has been a disaster for the commander relegating it into oblivion.

I don't play a ton of 3v3, but for 4v4 I personally just don't see lone REs vs lone Pios very often there. Its much more my full force vs your full force style engagements. YMMV.

Personally I also don't bother rushing the fuel with the REs. I find it nearly impossible to beat an MG42 that early on, so just grabbing my more basic caps makes more sense to me. I'll come back and pressure it when I have a larger force of Rifles, Smoke, (Mortar or Grenade) and the Ambo for forward reinforce. (usually minute 3 or so) My early REs mostly focus on securing VPs and putting down tank traps and wire, then get pressed into MG bait so I can figure out exactly where it is.

Well, 3v3 is another story completely because you don't have the luxury of "just" securing regular points. The level of 3v3 games is all over the place. Just last game got this brilliancy of MM.

and since 80% of games is basically just MM either screwing you (like in this game), or screwing the opponent (like a couple of games ago, where I played with top 100 against top 5000, won in 10 minutes).
So if you don't win your own fuel, you can never count on your teammate winning theirs. Fuel in 3v3 is a priority.

My point is that Rear echelons/CEs in Green cover should not lose to pioneers charging across neutral cover. Same as how Pioneers should not lose to rear echelons or CEs or royal engies charging against green cover. Well, they don't lose, but as well they shouldn't. I've tested it once, just after my last game. Combat engineers do not lose to pioneers in that same engagement. Tested it only once as I'm done for today. Basically, CEs do a lot more damage to pioneers on the longer range, and once they are close, they are down to 3 models and low hp, so CEs won that scenario.

I think you're misunderstanding the topic, the question isn't if RE are bad or why they are bad, but why they cost so much for being that bad.

RE were nerfed some time ago (april 2016) because one player used to spam them efficiently and win games in auto-match then balance team being what it is they applied the usual hammer nerf on them not trying at all to re-balance them.

Rear Echelons

We have scaled up Rear echelons up slightly to reduce spam.
Rear echelons cost up from 160 to 200
Rear echelon rifle damage up from 8 to 10

I like the slightly.

Then they received smoke as a nerf for USF since rifle lost it at the same time.
Then they've been nerfed again with the no dual M1919 for them and rifle (which was then true initial problem)
Then they lost 2 dps for a bit more accuracy. The true real reason was they were too good vs light vehicle with their 10 dps and no accuracy penalty. Kubel would melt and they could deal some damage to a 222 behind cover. another nerf in reality.
Then they received with the new doctrine the grenade launcher.

Somewhere in between they also received the flamer upgrade because removed from riflemen (another nerf), which has been a disaster for the commander relegating it into oblivion.

Really considering how much nerf the RE has received, the cost of 200 is really high. but on the issue of them losing to the pioneer rush in this above scenario that was counter, in fact, RE was misused. He shouldn't be alone there.

A lot of people have made good points here so I just want to speak in more general terms.

Rear Echelons are the most flexible combat engineer squad in the game but many of their specific roles require a lot of micro to work effectively. Plus, they're squishier than mainline squads due to inferior vet bonuses.

While Wehr pioneers can have about two combat roles (close-quarters, anti-building), REs have five (anti-tank, cover denial w/ grenades, fire support/suppression with BARs or M1919 LMG, support weapon denial w/ smoke grenades, and anti-building).

A few of them are micro-intensive (smoke, volley fire suppression, rifle grenade placement/bug of them walking forward to the squad you right-click on).

They're much easier to use, especially later in the game and as you add players, with just bazookas; your muni is better put into mainline squads with M1919s or BARs sooner into the game, too.

Usually, if I can put BARs on my RE squads, I've already won the game.

Really considering how much nerf the RE has received, the cost of 200 is really high. but on the issue of them losing to the pioneer rush in this above scenario that was counter, in fact, RE was misused. He shouldn't be alone there.

I don't know how you can be this dense. Nobody else can be there because it's a starting unit. Unless you know of some way in which a rifleman will be trained in 1 second so they can run with echelons, please do let me know. Or if you can make rifleman sprint. Are you really this dense or what? Nobody else can be besides a rear echelon because it's the fu***** first minute of the game

From my experience, the first engagement of 90% of 3v3 games is between starting units. The 2nd is between grens + MG42 or volks/kubel/fussies.

On paper, rear echelon sound brilliant, no doubt.


EDIT: Tested out the Combat engineers vs pioneers that charge them, CEs won 3/4 times. Once they lost was probably RNG because unlike other times, CEs did 0 dmg during the "closing-in" phase of pio rush.


Still, even though in 1v1 and 2v2 and 4v4, rear echelons losing to basically everything during the starting stage is not all that important given how they do have some usefulness with different builds, but in 3v3, seeing how 3v3 is a mode where you are playing basically 1v1 in each "lane", having a rear echelon lose from a superior green cover and getting displaced by rushing pioneers, before the first rifle squad even arrives to support it... not all that well made.