ISU-152 concrete piercing round

Ok, didn't really think of that tbh since I got all the commanders and 99% use those that have a superheavy call-in.

U might use supherheavy cmrds 99% of the time. THats not true for the community at all, massive exaggeration

U might use supherheavy cmrds 99% of the time. THats not true for the community at all, massive exaggeration

Mate, I just asked a question. No need to get trippy.

EDIT: Now I understood what I did. I meant I use 99% suphvy commanders. Never ventured to speak for the community. Fixing it.

and they decided to add an anti-team weapon ability to a tank with 450 armor, guaranteed pen and extreme damage on each and every tank that it fires at in the game

do they care about that point anyway?

Bullshit on one unit does not excuse bullshit on others.

But even if we accept that the JT can fight team weapons:
There is a huge difference between the JT pushing back a single team weapon (probably an ATG which is supposed to counter it) that is a third of its price and population and the ISU forcing back the Ele/JT at a similar price level. Especially since this could have the side effect that an ISU that is capable of defeating the Ele/JT would slaughter the Panther and anything below.

Bullshit on one unit does not excuse bullshit on others.

But even if we accept that the JT can fight team weapons:
There is a huge difference between the JT pushing back a single team weapon (probably an ATG which is supposed to counter it) that is a third of its price and population and the ISU forcing back the Ele/JT at a similar price level. Especially since this could have the side effect that an ISU that is capable of defeating the Ele/JT would slaughter the Panther and anything below.

Not really. With "low" armour and low ROF, a single Panther will always be able to take on the ISU152. Soviets on the other hand will have trouble with the Jgd/Ele. First their RAM combo has been gutted and you need to invest a lot of micro/munitions/MP/fuel to take it down. Worse if the enemy is competent.

Jagd and ele should have massive damage and armour and HP, but their mobility and rotation should be extremely low as well, and abilities should focus on AT, not AI.

ISU152 has good good armour (340) and good HP. Suffers from mobility as well. It's AT is decent enough and it's AI is great. Overall a well balanced unit after the HE range nerf.
Jagd wouldn't even be that OP if it was not in the same commander as the fussies

[...]

Jagd wouldn't even be that OP if it was not in the same commander as the fussies

Seconded. Plus the officer who forces insta-retreat.

Bullshit on one unit does not excuse bullshit on others.

But even if we accept that the JT can fight team weapons:
There is a huge difference between the JT pushing back a single team weapon (probably an ATG which is supposed to counter it) that is a third of its price and population and the ISU forcing back the Ele/JT at a similar price level. Especially since this could have the side effect that an ISU that is capable of defeating the Ele/JT would slaughter the Panther and anything below.

ISU honestly already does slaughter any and all armor beneath elephant/KT/JT. However inorder to effectively beat the elephant in a heads up fight you require mark. The issue I have is its penetration at max is <50% against the JT, which just seems dumb. I had my ISU recently bounce against an OKW p4 and was surprised by that. Not that the ability needs to give it 400 penetration but its pen most of the time isn't what holds it back versus non-superheavies, it's the rate of fire and shell swap times. I don't think a +20% timed pen ability would really break the ISU any further than the current JT or elephant.

At the very least the CPR should be considered for a change, as many people have agreed with it being mediocre.

The cost could definitely be lowered a bit after its nerfs.

60 muni isn't as big a swing as two grenades or a recon overflight (when your opponent doesn't have AA).

I think 35-45 is a more reasonable cost for the concrete piercing shell as one super long range grenade is the best you're going to get out of the ability.

ISU honestly already does slaughter any and all armor beneath elephant/KT/JT. However inorder to effectively beat the elephant in a heads up fight you require mark. The issue I have is its penetration at max is <50% against the JT, which just seems dumb. I had my ISU recently bounce against an OKW p4 and was surprised by that. Not that the ability needs to give it 400 penetration but its pen most of the time isn't what holds it back versus non-superheavies, it's the rate of fire and shell swap times. I don't think a +20% timed pen ability would really break the ISU any further than the current JT or elephant.

At the very least the CPR should be considered for a change, as many people have agreed with it being mediocre.

I vaguely remember that we once estimated the ISU's AT capability to be roughly equal to an SU85. So overall, it should lose to a Panther.

Your post got me the impression that you want the ISU to win or at least roughly be equal to the Elefant in terms of AT when the ability is activated. But pen buffs are as you said not as valuable for the ISU due to the deflection damage, which would mean damage and or ROF buffs. And those would hit lighter targets alike.

Not really. With "low" armour and low ROF, a single Panther will always be able to take on the ISU152. Soviets on the other hand will have trouble with the Jgd/Ele. First their RAM combo has been gutted and you need to invest a lot of micro/munitions/MP/fuel to take it down. Worse if the enemy is competent.

Jagd and ele should have massive damage and armour and HP, but their mobility and rotation should be extremely low as well, and abilities should focus on AT, not AI.

ISU152 has good good armour (340) and good HP. Suffers from mobility as well. It's AT is decent enough and it's AI is great. Overall a well balanced unit after the HE range nerf.
Jagd wouldn't even be that OP if it was not in the same commander as the fussies

As you can read from the post, my whole point was under the assumption that the ISU gets some type of timed AT ability that enables it to win against e.g. the Elefant, I was not talking about the current ISU.
CoH2 does not allow a unit to be good vs heavy units but bad vs lights, not with the current range of accuracies and target sizes. A buff vs heavies often works against lighter units too. The only way to somehow dofferentiate is by picking damage thresholds. And an ISU that wins against the Elefant MUST get higher ROF, meaning it will kill all other units more quickly.

Bullshit on one unit does not excuse bullshit on others.

But even if we accept that the JT can fight team weapons:
There is a huge difference between the JT pushing back a single team weapon (probably an ATG which is supposed to counter it) that is a third of its price and population and the ISU forcing back the Ele/JT at a similar price level. Especially since this could have the side effect that an ISU that is capable of defeating the Ele/JT would slaughter the Panther and anything below.

you are underestimating the jagdtiger barrage - its basically a steroid version of the brummbar bunker buster barrage


Asides from the fact that the jagdtiger slaughters all armor that exists in the game, it counters any and all allied armor that can be found AND it can take care of team weapons (either AT gun walls, or clean MG/bunker nests) for your already very potent infantry to move forward


the isu-152 already defeats panthers and below with the alpha damage that it provides, but obviously its unfair that you should kite 230 fuel heavies and flank the isu-152 with panthers, you clearly must be able to face tank the damn thing!!!!111!!!



Jokes aside, they shouldn't have nerfed jt/ele counters and wondered why each and every axis team comp in team mode is heavy TD stall with a dedicated lefh/panzerwerfer spammer

I vaguely remember that we once estimated the ISU's AT capability to be roughly equal to an SU85. So overall, it should lose to a Panther.

Your post got me the impression that you want the ISU to win or at least roughly be equal to the Elefant in terms of AT when the ability is activated. But pen buffs are as you said not as valuable for the ISU due to the deflection damage, which would mean damage and or ROF buffs. And those would hit lighter targets alike.
[...]

This pretty much. The ISU is already pretty decent when it comes to AT with almost exactly the firepower of an SU-85 (against a Tiger), while being much beefier when it comes to HP and armor. That means it's already able to facetank anything lighter than a KT, JT or Elefant without breaking a sweat unless it is forced to constantly move. Adding 20% more pen will do next to nothing against the three super-heavies mentioned before, hence I'd argue a timed pen boost ability would be even less useful than the current skillshot.

This pretty much. The ISU is already pretty decent when it comes to AT with pretty exactly the firepower of an SU-85 (against a Tiger), but twice as beefy when it comes to HP and armor. That means it's already able to facetank anything lighter than a KT, JT or Elefant without breaking a sweat unless it is forced to constantly move. Adding 20% more pen will do next to nothing against the three super-heavies mentioned before, hence I'd argue a timed pen boost ability would be even less useful than the current skillshot.

How is SU-85 shooting against a tiger equal to an ISU shooting at a super heavy? Super heavies at minimum have 375 armor where the tiger has 300. At baseline 220 max range pen the pen chance, especially when the SU-85 gets its vet and goes to 264 min is a far better pen chance than 200/375(400/450).

How is SU-85 shooting against a tiger equal to an ISU shooting at a super heavy? Super heavies at minimum have 375 armor where the tiger has 300. At baseline 220 max range pen the pen chance, especially when the SU-85 gets its vet and goes to 264 min is a far better pen chance than 200/375(400/450).

No one claimed these two examples are equal, at least not me. What I meant is that the DPS (measured by the T2K) of the ISU against heavily-armored targets is roughly equal to that of the SU-85. This of course includes other factors than pen, such as ROF or the fact that the ISU deals deflection damage, which diminishes in effectiveness the higher the pen chance gets. The latter is the reason why penetration bonuses are less desirable for the ISU than for other tanks, and an equal increase in ROF would be much more beneficial.

No one claimed these two examples are equal, at least not me. What I meant is that the DPS (measured by the T2K) of the ISU against heavily-armored targets is roughly equal to that of the SU-85. This of course includes other factors than pen, such as ROF or the fact that the ISU deals deflection damage, which diminishes in effectiveness the higher the pen chance gets. The latter is the reason why penetration bonuses are less desirable for the ISU than for other tanks, and an equal increase in ROF would be much more beneficial.

I vaguely remember that we once estimated the ISU's AT capability to be roughly equal to an SU85. So overall, it should lose to a Panther.

I might be misunderstanding hannibal here, but he may mean AT capability vs the panther instead of AT in general.

While I agree that because of deflection damage the penetration buff would make it less prominent, buffing RoF would risk overbuffing the tank. The ISU can already 2 shot 640s and 3 shot panthers with mark and it doesn't need to be done faster. While in all honesty I've had fantastic success against the elephant with the ISU, probably due to the deflection damage, penetration would benefit more against super heavies while keeping TTK vs 640s-960s roughly the same. I don't really think the ISU needs a buff, I'd just like the ability it has to be more useful or changed.

I might be misunderstanding hannibal here, but he may mean AT capability vs the panther instead of AT in general.

While I agree that because of deflection damage the penetration buff would make it less prominent, buffing RoF would risk overbuffing the tank. The ISU can already 2 shot 640s and 3 shot panthers with mark and it doesn't need to be done faster. While in all honesty I've had fantastic success against the elephant with the ISU, probably due to the deflection damage, penetration would benefit more against super heavies while keeping TTK vs 640s-960s roughly the same. I don't really think the ISU needs a buff, I'd just like the ability it has to be more useful or changed.

I also think the ISU doesn't need a buff with respect to AT, is does pretty well against tanks and fares even better compared to other TDs the heavier the armor gets it it facing. The graph below shows this in a bit simplified terms (DPS as a function of armor, with and without 20% penetration buff)



If you exclude factors like accuracy and alpha damage, the ISU-152 happens to get pretty even in performance to the SU-85 at about 320 armor, and surpasses it afterwards. This is probably also why it feels surprisingly potent against the really heavily armored beasts, even though it wouldn't win a head-to-head fight directly. In this respect, the current implementation of the concrete-piercing round is actually quite helpful, since you still need the finishing blow against any target to be a penetrating hit.

I might be misunderstanding hannibal here, but he may mean AT capability vs the panther instead of AT in general.

While I agree that because of deflection damage the penetration buff would make it less prominent, buffing RoF would risk overbuffing the tank. The ISU can already 2 shot 640s and 3 shot panthers with mark and it doesn't need to be done faster. While in all honesty I've had fantastic success against the elephant with the ISU, probably due to the deflection damage, penetration would benefit more against super heavies while keeping TTK vs 640s-960s roughly the same. I don't really think the ISU needs a buff, I'd just like the ability it has to be more useful or changed.

I think it might not be very clearly phrased on my part, but I think I also mixed up pure offensive fire power and did not regd the fact that it can take more of a beating than the SU85.

Anyway, my point was that a pen buff is probably not that useful as an ability, which imo would just replace one boring, situational ability (CPR) with a different one.

That's why suggested a stun round earlier. Would be something new for Soviets, and believable for a shell this size.

I'll also throw in another idea, although it might be broken:
A long range mini-barrage. Maybe even only one shot with suppression. Probably an improved HE shot, potentially larger far AoE but not super wipey. Max range maybe 90-100, min range 80. Lobbed shot only if necessary. This would work with the ISU being an assault gun, at this range you can only shoot at static targets or places where you know the enemy MUST pass by unless you have very deep recon which the Soviets barely get access to. The min range is there to prevent the ISU from directly engaging after it shot this shell, forcing you to use it only as support to pushes.
There surely are some issues with this idea, but I'll throw it in regardless.

I really cannot understand this sometimes.

Many people claim that it is better to buy 2 Panthers instead of a [super]heavy tank like Jagd, Ele or similar in order to counter enemy [super]heavy tanks.

I really don't get this. I'm not trying to troll, I ask in complete sincerity.

Why would you choose another Panther (or SU-85 if SOV) when you can call in Tiger/Ele and ISU? Sure, many top tier players advocate for that because I would assume they have god like micro and yes for them it's better to roll 2 dice for a hit chance rather than one. Other than that niche group, is there any reason not to save up for superheavy tank when enemy already has one?

same reason why you would want to build 2x p4 instead of a tiger or KT. You can't be that aggressive with elefant and can't dive either, so rocket arty is off limits with heavy TDs. Also heavy TD is one of the most boring stuff to use in COH2.
Regarding ISU, it is more is a AI unit. I highly doubt that anyone good gets it to use as heavy TD, since the reload and round change duration is so slow (11 sec I think). You can still do it, but it is highly inconvenient.