Seems odd that JT can nuke heavy at with barrage

I used the barrage ability to destroy Brit AT emplacement beyond his ability to hit.

AFAIK this is the only heavy AT tank that can destroy allied support teams from that range.

I saw my opponent in the replay, glimpsing the JT when it fired out of the fog, beyond his emplacement range...

I would've been pretty mad if I were him.

Is it right that such a strong AT unit has anti support weapon barrage as well?

Shouldn't combined arms shore up it's weaknesses instead?

On a side note: the barrage ability has a low cool down too

Replay (about 45 min in, and then shots landing on it at 55 min):
https://www.coh2.org/replay/109792/jt-kills-brit-at-gun-with-barrage

I've seen a JT barrage first hit wipe my entire rifle squad. Never knew why it has such a low cooldown and is on a tank with 450 frontal armour and 1000+ hp. Sure an ISU152 has a 60 range HE shell and good armour (340), but it has it's weaknesses. No panther to defend dives against it and generally pretty weak main tank considering AT. With the nerf to the RAM combo, JT having 300 dmg and 500 penetration and 450 armour and better accuracy on the main gun, don't know why it also get a massive AI ability that can one hit wipe squads from 125 range, when generally Soviets won't be able to deal with it without sacrificing more MP/fuel/muni than one JT is worth.

The only real downside of the barrage on JT is that it has no spread. It's quite accurate and pretty much all shells land in the circle meaning, if it's aimed at moving squads, you will damage and definitely force retreats but unless it's a first hit wipe, you won't get a lot of kills past the first shell. Of course, if the enemy is not paying attention at that moment and the squad is static and you use the fussie flare to scout it out, you can inflict massive damage.
Again, this lack of scatter means it's better against encampments.
Still, why a dedicated heavy AT has a 125 range AI barrage is beyond me. Probably sturm or sander like using it a lot on wide open maps in teamgames. Who knows. I agreed with the range nerf on the ISU152. Nobody likes 70 range mini-nukes in teamgames but ISU152 has a lot of other vulnerabilities:
1) It's AT is mediocre with the ROF and penetration values
2) It's frontal armour is not all that impressive. It's high overall but you can't really force luck with it (like you can force luck with a KT against a wall of M1 57s)
3) It does not have a Panther to protect it.

JT never should have had a barrage ability, not with the armour piercing ability that transforms it into a pak43 for some time.

I've seen a JT barrage first hit wipe my entire rifle squad. Never knew why it has such a low cooldown and is on a tank with 450 frontal armour and 1000+ hp. Sure an ISU152 has a 60 range HE shell and good armour (340), but it has it's weaknesses. No panther to defend dives against it and generally pretty weak main tank considering AT. With the nerf to the RAM combo, JT having 300 dmg and 500 penetration and 450 armour and better accuracy on the main gun, don't know why it also get a massive AI ability that can one hit wipe squads from 125 range, when generally Soviets won't be able to deal with it without sacrificing more MP/fuel/muni than one JT is worth.

The only real downside of the barrage on JT is that it has no spread. It's quite accurate and pretty much all shells land in the circle meaning, if it's aimed at moving squads, you will damage and definitely force retreats but unless it's a first hit wipe, you won't get a lot of kills past the first shell. Of course, if the enemy is not paying attention at that moment and the squad is static and you use the fussie flare to scout it out, you can inflict massive damage.
Again, this lack of scatter means it's better against encampments.
Still, why a dedicated heavy AT has a 125 range AI barrage is beyond me. Probably sturm or sander like using it a lot on wide open maps in teamgames. Who knows. I agreed with the range nerf on the ISU152. Nobody likes 70 range mini-nukes in teamgames but ISU152 has a lot of other vulnerabilities:
1) It's AT is mediocre with the ROF and penetration values
2) It's frontal armour is not all that impressive. It's high overall but you can't really force luck with it (like you can force luck with a KT against a wall of M1 57s)
3) It does not have a Panther to protect it.

JT never should have had a barrage ability, not with the armour piercing ability that transforms it into a pak43 for some time.

the ability is laser accurate precisely because you are supposed to snipe AT guns, the only thing that's going to really stop you. Your infantry can beat their infantry regardless.

Well it should not out range 17pdr period that has never made any sense.

if that Emplacement only had some kind of oneclick ability that makes any incoming munisink ability damage obsolete

if that Emplacement only had some kind of oneclick ability that makes any incoming munisink ability damage obsolete

Like he used in the replay...

Right?

I've seen a JT barrage first hit wipe my entire rifle squad. Never knew why it has such a low cooldown and is on a tank with 450 frontal armour and 1000+ hp

Never lost infantry squads to it, but it killed a lot of my AT crews though. BTW such a good idea to give JT a counter to type of support weapon that counters it

Never lost infantry squads to it, but it killed a lost a lot of my AT crews though. BTW such a good idea to give JT a counter to type of support weapon that counters it

Well practically speaking an AT gun isn't going to be countering a JT in the first place what with that armor. It's more like the JT being a two-for-one bargain killing Allied heavy tanks and destroying AT guns for the Panthers to come in and run rampage.

Never lost infantry squads to it, but it killed a lost a lot of my AT crews though. BTW such a good idea to give JT a counter to type of support weapon that counters it

It was mostly RNG. Engaging in lategame inside some yellow crater. Not really bunched up but not spread out either. First hit can wipe whole squad, but yeah, if the field is not saturated with yellow craters which generally tend to make the squads clump up as they run, JT is a danger to static weapon teams mostly.

What I find odd about this ability is that, opposed to other HE shells, it has obscenely high pen and AoE pen (same as the regular AP shells). This means it can quite reliably outright destroy support weapons instead of just decrewing them. It's also surprisingly effective vs armor (if you manage to hit, that is) for that reason, although each shell will only deal 160 damage.
I don't think the barrage needs to have that high pen values as it should primarily be an AI tool. However, playing around with it I noticed the shells don't seem to have a proper animation for deflected rounds (shell just disappears w/o sound or visual FX), so maybe the almost guaranteed pen is a poor-man's fix for that?

What I find odd about this ability is that, opposed to other HE shells, it has obscenely high pen and AoE pen (same as the regular AP shells). This means it can quite reliably outright destroy support weapons instead of just decrewing them. It's also surprisingly effective vs armor (if you manage to hit, that is) for that reason, although each shell will only deal 160 damage.
I don't think the barrage needs to have that high pen values as it should primarily be an AI tool. However, playing around with it I noticed the shells don't seem to have a proper animation for deflected rounds (shell just disappears w/o sound or visual FX), so maybe the almost guaranteed pen is a poor-man's fix for that?

The same goes for ISU-152 skill shot (which was recently buffed) and that combines 240 damage, guaranteed penetration, great AOE and low scatter.

Talking about scatter the JT barrage has scatter and it is not "laser accurate".

Well it should not out range 17pdr period that has never made any sense.

Indeed. What's the point of building an AT emplacement if its very prey has the ability to nuke it from beyond its range?

One is a shot skill and another is Barrage.
sigh...

One is a shot skill and another is Barrage.
sigh...

And that makes a difference in your opinion because?

From the basic of ability, there are already different. That all.
Compete between skil shot and barrage is stupidly nonsense, please back to Jadtiger.

What I find odd about this ability is that, opposed to other HE shells, it has obscenely high pen and AoE pen (same as the regular AP shells). This means it can quite reliably outright destroy support weapons instead of just decrewing them. It's also surprisingly effective vs armor (if you manage to hit, that is) for that reason, although each shell will only deal 160 damage.
I don't think the barrage needs to have that high pen values as it should primarily be an AI tool. However, playing around with it I noticed the shells don't seem to have a proper animation for deflected rounds (shell just disappears w/o sound or visual FX), so maybe the almost guaranteed pen is a poor-man's fix for that?

Based on https://coh2.serealia.ca/#147 , Wonder why Jadtiger HE barrage had 520 pen ?. That mean if a heavy tank stay in barrage area. It would take full damage from 4 shot ( if all of them hit target) ?.

From the basic of ability, there are already different. That all.
Compete between skil shot and barrage is stupidly nonsense, please back to Jadtiger.

1) Pls explain why the are different, with both of them you aim at place and shoot. Main difference is that with concrete shot you do not get that much scatter.

2) Pls read context before quoting me, MMX pointed out that JT barrage does too much damage to support weapons (the weapon it self) and vehicles I simply point out that this is not a unique feature and the same happens with ISU-152 Concrete Piercing. The fact that the shot was buffed quite recently greatly increasing its AOE and penetration indicated that MOD teams beleives that shot behaving in this manner is fine. My point is completely relevant to JT (unlike yours).

Based on https://coh2.serealia.ca/#147 , Wonder why Jadtiger HE barrage had 520 pen ?. That mean if a heavy tank stay in barrage area. It would take full damage from 4 shot ( if all of them hit target) ?.

And Concrete Piercing shot was recently buffed to 1.000 penetration so again there is nothing peculiar here.

The fact that in game description clarifies that barrage is effective vs all targets further indicates that this a design decision.

Finally the ability fire 3 shots not 4 as you claim (it does get 2 extra shells at vet 1) and it does not fire at 125 range as some one else claimed either but 95.

If I recall correctly the reason why the Jagdtiger get the barrage in the first play was because if there wasn't any tank around it would become a sitting duck with no purpose with a heavy cost and that was too bad.
You forbid your opponent to play with tanks and on top of that you get an ability to wipe its infantry because otherwise its too bad.

" skill shot " and " barrage skill "
> that all.
Also, 3 or 4 shots, 125 range not change the subject of OP and my question to MMX.

Finally the ability fire 3 shots not 4 as you claim (it does get 2 extra shells at vet 1) and it does not fire at 125 range as some one else claimed either but 95.

Huh, you're correct. For some reason I always thought that it has 4 shells at vet 0 and 125 m range. Guess this is another case where the ability range is shorter than the actual gun range