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russian armor

OST sniper need nerf.

19 Oct 2021, 17:20 PM
#21
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Oct 2021, 17:15 PMvgfgff


then you agree it is same.

and I never said It will has same cost.

No losing a more expensive entity is not the same as losing cheaper entity.

No losing an entity which represent the 25% of a squad is not the same as losing an entity that represent 17% of squad.

And that has nothing to do with it the squad is axis or allied.
19 Oct 2021, 17:26 PM
#22
avatar of vgfgff

Posts: 177

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Oct 2021, 17:20 PMVipper

No losing a more expensive entity is not the same as losing cheaper entity.

No losing an entity which represent the 25% of a squad is not the same as losing an entity that represent 17% of squad.

And that has nothing to do with it the squad is axis or allied.


Did you forget about losing dps when dropped?
currently 6 and 4 men squad has same DPS.
So It does a same impact.
19 Oct 2021, 17:33 PM
#23
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Oct 2021, 17:26 PMvgfgff


Did you forget about losing dps when dropped?
currently 6 and 4 men squad has same DPS.
So It does a same impact.

If squad members carry the same same weapon a 4 men squad losing an entity lose 25% DPS an 6 man loses 17%. It is simply not the same.

I find this line of arguing very non constructive and I have little to add, so I will stop here.

You are entitled to believe that they it has the "same impact" if you wish thou.
19 Oct 2021, 17:34 PM
#24
avatar of vgfgff

Posts: 177

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Oct 2021, 17:33 PMVipper

If squad members carry the same same weapon a 4 men squad losing an entity lose 25% DPS an 6 man loses 17%. It is simply not the same.

I find this line of arguing very non constructive and I have little to add, so I will stop here.

You are entitled to believe that they it has the "same impact" if you wish thou.



except they don't carry a same weapon. and each weapon have difference damage / acc.
Honestly
everyone tried when argue with you because you always bring argument that out of topic. so I stopped now.
last things if it have no problem then why they(pro and balanced team) are trying to fix sniper problem almost 2 patch by now.
19 Oct 2021, 17:45 PM
#25
avatar of Leo251

Posts: 311

I will add that all of the 3 snipers were nerfed too much.
They received double nerf is the last few patches:
- Sight nerf.
- Slow movement after shot nerf.

At least sight nerf should be reverted. Many players used snipers as forward observers.
19 Oct 2021, 17:51 PM
#26
avatar of vgfgff

Posts: 177

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Oct 2021, 17:45 PMLeo251
I will add that all of the 3 snipers were nerfed too much.
They received double nerf is the last few patches:
- Sight nerf.
- Slow movement after shot nerf.

At least sight nerf should be reverted. Many players used snipers as forward observers.



A problem of sniper is it too hard to kill while they have cover by other unit.
19 Oct 2021, 18:46 PM
#27
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Oct 2021, 17:34 PMvgfgff

except they don't carry a same weapon. and each weapon have difference damage / acc.

Unfortunately I have clarify because it seem you have misunderstood. It makes no difference if 4 men squad and six man squad carry different weapon as long the squad members with the same squad carry a weapon of the same DPS.
A 4 men squad losing a entity will 25% DPS and 6 men squad will 17%. If they carry different weapon the percentage might differ but they will still not be same.

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Oct 2021, 17:34 PMvgfgff

Honestly
everyone tried when argue with you because you always bring argument that out of topic. so I stopped now.

If I have posted anything out of topic in this thread feel free to point out what in your opinion is out of topic.

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Oct 2021, 17:34 PMvgfgff

last things if it have no problem then why they(pro and balanced team) are trying to fix sniper problem almost 2 patch by now.
19 Oct 2021, 18:54 PM
#28
avatar of Solar.

Posts: 22

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Oct 2021, 17:45 PMLeo251
I will add that all of the 3 snipers were nerfed too much.
They received double nerf is the last few patches:
- Sight nerf.
- Slow movement after shot nerf.

At least sight nerf should be reverted. Many players used snipers as forward observers.

I thought sniper got their vision back when they vetted up.

Also anyone can still use an unvetted sniper as recon because of their camo especially late game with craters.
19 Oct 2021, 18:55 PM
#29
avatar of vgfgff

Posts: 177

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Oct 2021, 18:46 PMVipper

Unfortunately I have clarify because it seem you have misunderstood. It makes no difference if 4 men squad and six man squad carry different weapon as long the squad members with the same squad carry a weapon of the same DPS.
A 4 men squad losing a entity will 25% DPS and 6 men squad will 17%. If they carry different weapon the percentage might differ but they will still not be same.


If I have posted anything out of topic in this thread feel free to point out what in your opinion is out of topic.




Can you underline a sentence or a word in my topic (not my reply to other) which I point about soviet sniper are weaker than OST?

My point is all sniper should have more nerf because It very difficult to kill in high rank gameplay.
I specific to OST because other sniper got mirrored by OST other stats while ost sniper fire rate and ability remain same.



19 Oct 2021, 19:37 PM
#30
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Oct 2021, 18:55 PMvgfgff

Can you underline a sentence or a word in my topic (not my reply to other) which I point about soviet sniper are weaker than OST?

I have no idea why you are asking me that and I do not find the question constructive.

PLS do not quote me unless you want to respond to something relevant without what I have posted and in this case there is simply no relevance.

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Oct 2021, 18:55 PMvgfgff

My point is all sniper should have more nerf because It very difficult to kill in high rank gameplay.
I specific to OST because other sniper got mirrored by OST other stats while ost sniper fire rate and ability remain same.

I have simply point out that different entities have different cost and thus the manpower is bleed from being sniped is different.

I have also point out that impact of losing an entity is related to number of entities of squad.

Feel free to disagree with any of these two points, if you wish.
19 Oct 2021, 20:28 PM
#31
avatar of vgfgff

Posts: 177

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Oct 2021, 19:37 PMVipper

I have no idea why you are asking me that and I do not find the question constructive.

PLS do not quote me unless you want to respond to something relevant without what I have posted and in this case there is simply no relevance.


I have simply point out that different entities have different cost and thus the manpower is bleed from being sniped is different.

I have also point out that impact of losing an entity is related to number of entities of squad.

Feel free to disagree with any of these two points, if you wish.


I didn't said you're wrong at your point. and I'm lazy to explain a about sniper mechanic ,build order in this post.

However
You point is not relevance to mine.so I don't need to reply which is not related in this topic.

If you want to share this opinion. Why you won't open a new one? then we make a discuss there not here.

In this topic.
Do I talk about cost here? No.
and Is this your word?
"If I have posted anything out of topic in this thread feel free to point out"

I will walkaway from your point in this topic but If you started new one maybe we make a dicussion again.
19 Oct 2021, 20:54 PM
#32
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Oct 2021, 20:28 PMvgfgff


I didn't said you're wrong at your point. and I'm lazy to explain a about sniper mechanic ,build order in this post.

However
You point is not relevance to mine.so I don't need to reply which is not related in this topic.

If you want to share this opinion. Why you won't open a new one? then we make a discuss there not here.

In this topic.
Do I talk about cost here? No.
and Is this your word?
"If I have posted anything out of topic in this thread feel free to point out"

I will walkaway from your point in this topic but If you started new one maybe we make a dicussion again.


Yes you have talk about manpower cost, actually you brought it to this debate and not me
jump backJump back to quoted post19 Oct 2021, 15:53 PMvgfgff


To fight with 4 men or 6 men. It is same. their duty is not wiped squad but sniped 1 men. 1 men mean manpower cost.

They're too good because you can't kill sniper without using other sniper or blobing and ORAAAAAAAAA!!! to kill only 1 sniper.


Now pls stop asking me these questions and the non constrictive way of debate, I really do not want any part in it.
19 Oct 2021, 21:10 PM
#33
avatar of Grim

Posts: 1096

Snipers are fine from my experiences with them
20 Oct 2021, 08:15 AM
#34
avatar of vgfgff

Posts: 177

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Oct 2021, 20:54 PMVipper


Yes you have talk about manpower cost, actually you brought it to this debate and not me


Now pls stop asking me these questions and the non constrictive way of debate, I really do not want any part in it.



I reply to that comment. Not a Topic.
And reply at point sniper is not intent to wiped squad but for bleed MP .


You're lying with statistics.
Let considering how much DPS that you mean 100% in its number.

According to this
https://coh2.serealia.ca/#97

Conscript max dps is 4.
4/6 = 0.67 per unit.
grenadier max dps is 6.
6/4 = 1.5 per unit.
assuming sniper dropped both 1 man.
conscript dps = 0.67*5 = 3.35
grenadier dps = 1.5*3 = 4.5
assuming sniper dropped both 2 man.
conscript dps = 0.67*4 = 2.68
grenadier dps = 1.5*2 = 3.0

even gren has halfzize of squad they still have higher dps.
Infantry unit was balanced by a lot of stats not just squad size.

this is not include Target size,pop cap, weapon upgrade. tech order. etc...

this is why I lazy to explain these things to you.
20 Oct 2021, 13:25 PM
#35
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Oct 2021, 08:15 AMvgfgff
I reply to that comment. Not a Topic.


You're lying with statistics.
Let considering how much DPS that you mean 100% in its number.

According to this
https://coh2.serealia.ca/#97

Conscript max dps is 4.
4/6 = 0.67 per unit.
grenadier max dps is 6.
6/4 = 1.5 per unit.
assuming sniper dropped both 1 man.
conscript dps = 0.67*5 = 3.35
grenadier dps = 1.5*3 = 4.5
assuming sniper dropped both 2 man.
conscript dps = 0.67*4 = 2.68
grenadier dps = 1.5*2 = 3.0

even gren has halfzize of squad they still have higher dps.
Infantry unit was balanced by a lot of stats not just squad size.

this is not include Target size,pop cap, weapon upgrade. tech order. etc...

this is why I lazy to explain these things to you.

1. This site is often wrong and 90% at least inaccurate
2. I don't know where you got the data from, surely not even from this site, because it does not line up. It's wrong though.
3. Because of 2, your calculations and conclusions are wrong as well.
4. DPS is not everything. Breaking it down to DPS only is pretty nonsense and only works if the HP are comparable.
20 Oct 2021, 15:07 PM
#36
avatar of vgfgff

Posts: 177


1. This site is often wrong and 90% at least inaccurate
2. I don't know where you got the data from, surely not even from this site, because it does not line up. It's wrong though.
3. Because of 2, your calculations and conclusions are wrong as well.
4. DPS is not everything. Breaking it down to DPS only is pretty nonsense and only works if the HP are comparable.


1. Maybe But Player still use this site for ref(especially steam).
2. Value from "grenadier_squad_mp: grenadier_kar_98k_rifle_mp". I assume fight at 0-5 range.
3. How my conclusions are wrong?
vipper was calculated losing dps by percentage then I represent it as number. or if you can fix my number. I will appreciated.

4. Agree. this is nonsense so as reinforce cost.

Anyways thanks for your stats information which is shown Gren still have higher DPS than cons.
20 Oct 2021, 15:24 PM
#37
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Oct 2021, 15:07 PMvgfgff
1. Maybe But Player still use this site for ref(especially steam).
2. Value from "grenadier_squad_mp: grenadier_kar_98k_rifle_mp" I assume at close range dps.
3. How It is wrong? vipper was calculate losing dps by percent then I represent it as number.
4. yes agree so as reinforce cost it not everythings.

1. Because it was available for a long time, but there is no information on how the DPS is calculated. I tested it and these graphs range from fairly accurate to very inaccurate, depending on weapon and range.
2+3: The values are per weapon, not per squad. Which should be fairly obvious if you look at the values. You just took them blindly without questioning any of it. When you saw 4 DPS for a whole Conscript squad at close range you should have seen that something is off. This turns your whole calculation about DPS after model loss upside down.
4. As you said yourself, a sniper is there to kill singular models. It's intention is bleed and strategic damage, which is why at least in the Conscript vs Ostheer setup, an Ostheer sniper is not as effective as e.g. against Penals or USF/UKF in general. It diminishes fighting power. A 2 men Gren squad needs to retreat, a 4 men Conscript doesn't.
20 Oct 2021, 15:32 PM
#38
avatar of vgfgff

Posts: 177


1. Because it was available for a long time, but there is no information on how the DPS is calculated. I tested it and these graphs range from fairly accurate to very inaccurate, depending on weapon and range.
2+3: The values are per weapon, not per squad. Which should be fairly obvious if you look at the values. You just took them blindly without questioning any of it. When you saw 4 DPS for a whole Conscript squad at close range you should have seen that something is off. This turns your whole calculation about DPS after model loss upside down.
4. As you said yourself, a sniper is there to kill singular models. It's intention is bleed and strategic damage, which is why at least in the Conscript vs Ostheer setup, an Ostheer sniper is not as effective as e.g. against Penals or USF/UKF in general.



Yes. My point in this topic is at #4 with they too hard to kill. It shouldn't going to cost and dps calculation.

OST sniper vs cons build might not effective as vs IS or Penal. but They still does if SOV use cons build they likely to going T2 instead of T1 meaning no sniper.


I'm wrong as calculate DPS per squad instead of per weaponw with outdated data.
However if calculate dps per weapon by use percentage that vipper has posted and represent it as an integer value. I thinkg It still fall in same pattern. but if other value involve this will be loss upside down.

Thank for your stats chart. May I borrow them to use for reference next time?

20 Oct 2021, 15:59 PM
#39
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Oct 2021, 15:32 PMvgfgff
Yes. My point in this topic is at #4 with they too hard to kill. It shouldn't going to cost and dps calculation.

I'm wrong as calculate DPS per squad instead of per weaponw with outdated data.
However if calculate dps per squad a DPS lose is still in same pattern.

Thank for your stats chart. May I borrow them to use for reference next time?

I agree that sniper's integration into the game is lacking in terms of other counters than "counter sniping", especially for the DLC factions.
The DPS loss is not in the same pattern. When both squads lose 1 model their DPS evens out, when they lose two models Conscripts have higher DPS. This is contrary to what you have posted and a direct result from higher squad sizes. But again, DPS is not everything, not even in regards to fighting capability. But I actually don't want to focus on the special case of Cons vs Grens, since it is only one of multiple match ups, which is also more in line with your original post.

Of course you can use the code, that's why I published it.
20 Oct 2021, 17:09 PM
#40
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 772

With all those arguments, I'm still not convinced that OST sniper is better then SOV one. If anything SOV is generally more effective, especially in tandem with Penals. It also has a flare that can reveal cloaked units. So if any nerf should be done, it should be done to all, or at least both SOV and OST snipers.

Counter snipe is kind of redundant ability. Pretty sure most counter sniping at higher levels is done manually.
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