OKW Flak HQ Lethality
6 Oct 2021, 20:58 PM
#21
Posts: 472
I always found it very annoying that it & OKW base bunkers penetrating even medium or heavy tanks.
6 Oct 2021, 21:14 PM
#22
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
but..this isnt an issue with the schwerer. its on bofors and other fast shjooting guns too. like ostwind, centaur, okw HT, etc .
All of those things have a popcost, and you pay for those units. The flak HQ is a free add-on, and it doesn't really need the ability to kill infantry. To control an area with suppression is more than enough
6 Oct 2021, 21:28 PM
#23
Posts: 100
The Schwer is ironically oppressive only when it's very defensive, like when he uses it in a very safe spot near his base (crossroads cutoff, for example), because in those cases there's no real counterplay.
Whenever it's used for greed (VP/fuel) it is easily punished and I've won many games by taking out a greedy schwer, so I'm generally happy enough that this trade-off exists.
Agreed, an aggressive HQ is usually easy to off (although there are some maps where aggressive play can be more successful than others), but one of the main issues I have with it is that it shuts down one of the core gameplay elements of COH, that is, supply/cut-off harassing, and even on some maps, like Crossroads for example, it can be placed aggressively to cover a VP and drag the game on for a long time.
6 Oct 2021, 21:42 PM
#24
Posts: 100
I want to bring up another point that I probably should have mentioned in the OP that is more of an indirect consequence of this unit's range/lethality, and that is that the nature of this unit allows indirect fire to be pushed far more aggressively than any other faction. A double LEIG sitting around a Schwerer HQ on maps like Langreskaya or Faymonville are not necessarily overpowered, but holy hell do they make the game instantly unfun to play, like the old advanced bofors + mortar emplacements. You cannot reliably attack these indirect fire positions or force them to relocate because they can easy take a few backpedal steps into the range of the Flak HQ, which will either suppress or kill approaching units (but often both).
6 Oct 2021, 22:19 PM
#25
Posts: 956
I always found it very annoying that it & OKW base bunkers penetrating even medium or heavy tanks.
You're not supposed to dive the HQ sector. There are free defenses there for a reason. Nvm the potential for running into a brand new Panther with its sights trained on you.
For Italy! We have outfoxed the enemy once more!
7 Oct 2021, 02:49 AM
#26
Posts: 472
You're not supposed to dive the HQ sector. There are free defenses there for a reason. Nvm the potential for running into a brand new Panther with its sights trained on you.
Dive into the HQ sector with 222/AEC/t-70/Stuart etc. to chase & kill low health 1~2 model retreating squad is always a viable option. Except against OKW that is.
Yes it is a risky move, but the potential outcome of wiping a squad is sometimes risk-worthy.
7 Oct 2021, 03:26 AM
#27
Posts: 348
You're not supposed to dive the HQ sector. There are free defenses there for a reason. Nvm the potential for running into a brand new Panther with its sights trained on you.
Lol I wiped a pgren squad like 20 mins ago by chasing it into base with clown car. Clown car and engy survived. Ive done similar things with a 222
You can dive HQ with light vehicles against any other faction, but OKW is special cuz reasons
7 Oct 2021, 08:36 AM
#28
Posts: 63
You're not supposed to dive the HQ sector. There are free defenses there for a reason. Nvm the potential for running into a brand new Panther with its sights trained on you.
So by what you mean, we just let Stuka zufuss runs free?
7 Oct 2021, 10:10 AM
#29
Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2
You're not supposed to dive the HQ sector. There are free defenses there for a reason. Nvm the potential for running into a brand new Panther with its sights trained on you.
The defenses are there to prevent super early infantry rushes into the base, which would effectively mean that you "cap" the enemies base, denying him to retreat his squads outside as well as building new ones (since those will be outgunned heavily).
But I think OP is overexaggerating, especially with damage against heavies.. Even Against a T34s rear armor, the Flak emplacement does about ~5 DPS. There is some damage, but not an awful lot, especially since some shots will be front armor and the Emplacement quickly deleted. Still, they are the best of all emplacements in case an LV wants to enter your base for the last shot.
7 Oct 2021, 10:38 AM
#30
Posts: 956
Dive into the HQ sector with 222/AEC/t-70/Stuart etc. to chase & kill low health 1~2 model retreating squad is always a viable option. Except against OKW that is.
Yes it is a risky move, but the potential outcome of wiping a squad is sometimes risk-worthy.
You can do this and also not be surprised when (esp outside of 1v1) you run into a snare unit and then lose your unit for virtually nothing. The risk greatly exceeds the reward.
Lol I wiped a pgren squad like 20 mins ago by chasing it into base with clown car. Clown car and engy survived. Ive done similar things with a 222
You can dive HQ with light vehicles against any other faction, but OKW is special cuz reasons
That's a pretty lousy Ostheer that gets trashed by a clown car, with their extra faust range grens. I too can claim that I wiped wounded Shocks in base with a 223/Luchs and use that as an argument. Or dive puma to kill 2-3 Katyushas and getting accused of maphacking. I have also lost such a puma for nothing at least 5x .
So by what you mean, we just let Stuka zufuss runs free?
If they parked it in the HQ sector (when not in use) they are using it carefully, like any rocket arty. Expect mines and worse.
The defenses are there to prevent super early infantry rushes into the base, which would effectively mean that you "cap" the enemies base, denying him to retreat his squads outside as well as building new ones (since those will be outgunned heavily).
But I think OP is overexaggerating, especially with damage against heavies.. Even Against a T34s rear armor, the Flak emplacement does about ~5 DPS. There is some damage, but not an awful lot, especially since some shots will be front armor and the Emplacement quickly deleted. Still, they are the best of all emplacements in case an LV wants to enter your base for the last shot.
While that is true, we also recently had a resistance modifier added to the ambulance to prevent it being sniped by a tank dive in the HQ sector. I know OP is overexaggerating as I have seen this situation with tank vs Flak HQ/emplacement play out dozens of times.
If I had my way, you couldn't even send units into the enemy base but they met this compromise with defenses and extreme risk.
For Italy! We have outfoxed the enemy once more!
7 Oct 2021, 11:01 AM
#31
Posts: 472
You can do this and also not be surprised when (esp outside of 1v1) you run into a snare unit and then lose your unit for virtually nothing. The risk greatly exceeds the reward..
That is another story that player must concern about. I can't find any special reason for OKW to have 100% denial against light vehicle base rush.
7 Oct 2021, 11:18 AM
#32
Posts: 3114 | Subs: 2
While that is true, we also recently had a resistance modifier added to the ambulance to prevent it being sniped by a tank dive in the HQ sector. I know OP is overexaggerating as I have seen this situation with tank vs Flak HQ/emplacement play out dozens of times.
If I had my way, you couldn't even send units into the enemy base but they met this compromise with defenses and extreme risk.
Since this is going off-topic, only one last quick note from my side:
I personally like the risk/reward mentality of being able to dive into the base. I also think the ambulance change was mostly a 1v1 change where on some maps you have to place it in front of an open base exit. The ambu is also fairly expensive for being 1-shotted as well as its position is very predictable. It was a special solution for a single unit. The base defenses are still there to defend against infantry and very lightly armored vehicles. They are bunkers after all, and a short term infantry advantage could otherwise end the game if those did not exist.
7 Oct 2021, 14:08 PM
#33
Posts: 1153 | Subs: 1
Not sure how we shifted to OKW's base defenses but, yes, no faction should have base emplacements with 360 degree coverage.
I voted "yes" in the poll but only because I don't think any faction should have a tech building that is able to lockdown a large portion of the map (especially on maps with lots of chokepoints, namely kholodny ferma). I much prefer the UKF's ability to put down the optional forward point. Or a design that requires you to create several things (like wehr reinforce + heal bunkers) in order to have a functional forward HQ.
I voted "yes" in the poll but only because I don't think any faction should have a tech building that is able to lockdown a large portion of the map (especially on maps with lots of chokepoints, namely kholodny ferma). I much prefer the UKF's ability to put down the optional forward point. Or a design that requires you to create several things (like wehr reinforce + heal bunkers) in order to have a functional forward HQ.
7 Oct 2021, 16:02 PM
#34
Posts: 503 | Subs: 1
That is another story that player must concern about. I can't find any special reason for OKW to have 100% denial against light vehicle base rush.[/quote
I literally just dived a T70 into an OKW base today to kill a volk. Base defenses took less than 1/4 of the HP, and you know this as well as I do. Same thing for Stuart. You could also create a cheatmod test with a T70/Stuart and a flak emplacement and check the time to kill, but you don't need to cos you know as well as I do that it was a nonsensical exaggeration.
I've even been dived with an M5 carrying ass sections into my OKW base before. The flak emplacements can only zone out m20s and clown cars but do really laughable DPS against light tanks. I don't understand why you need to lie to get your point across.
In any case base defense positioning does need to be fixed on many maps. I remember putting a squad up against the stone fence on north Langres and killing my opponent's Riflemen at the retreat point.
7 Oct 2021, 17:51 PM
#35
Posts: 348
That's a pretty lousy Ostheer that gets trashed by a clown car, with their extra faust range grens.
Ok dude, thx for the compliment. Yeah it wasn't a skillful play by me at all, realizing that his grens were all engaged elsewhere. I chased a low health squad knowing it was safe to do so and got rewarded
I too can claim that I wiped wounded Shocks in base with a 223/Luchs and use that as an argument.
As an argument for what? You realize this supports what im saying....? I have also dived into an HQ with a luchs and with a puma
The entire point is that you cant do this against OKW, regardless of where their army is. THe flak defenses can shred light vehicles and they are 360 unlike the bunkers
7 Oct 2021, 18:53 PM
#36
Posts: 956
Ok dude, thx for the compliment. Yeah it wasn't a skillful play by me at all, realizing that his grens were all engaged elsewhere. I chased a low health squad knowing it was safe to do so and got rewarded
As an argument for what? You realize this supports what im saying....? I have also dived into an HQ with a luchs and with a puma
The entire point is that you cant do this against OKW, regardless of where their army is. THe flak defenses can shred light vehicles and they are 360 unlike the bunkers
This is going to be my last post in this thread and on this specific topic. Already off topic as is and I've said enough about the flak HQ over the years.
Okay, congratz on outplaying him and the opportunistic attack. I still think your clown car (or any LV regardless of faction) should have been shredded for doing a HQ dive but ah well.
It is not an argument because for every time it worked successfully, at least 10x have been failures, as it frankly should be.
For Italy! We have outfoxed the enemy once more!
7 Oct 2021, 19:05 PM
#37
Posts: 1890 | Subs: 1
As far as the gun goes, maybe less suppression and damage for faster fire rate?
Something like this or I'd say just turn it into giant suppression platform by upping the suppression/AoE suppression and lowering the damage. That way it's less likely that you get crawlers tossing satchels/gammons but you also don't randomly gib squads at max range. At the very least I think it's far range accuracy should be reduced as I personally think it's too good at doing max range damage to squads.
7 Oct 2021, 19:31 PM
#38
Posts: 67
Something like this or I'd say just turn it into giant suppression platform by upping the suppression/AoE suppression and lowering the damage. That way it's less likely that you get crawlers tossing satchels/gammons but you also don't randomly gib squads at max range. At the very least I think it's far range accuracy should be reduced as I personally think it's too good at doing max range damage to squads.
Would also trade some damage to be actually able to target what i want.
7 Oct 2021, 20:36 PM
#39
Posts: 348
This is going to be my last post in this thread and on this specific topic. Already off topic as is and I've said enough about the flak HQ over the years.
Okay, congratz on outplaying him and the opportunistic attack. I still think your clown car (or any LV regardless of faction) should have been shredded for doing a HQ dive but ah well.
It is not an argument because for every time it worked successfully, at least 10x have been failures, as it frankly should be.
Still completely ignoring the point. Of course its usually a failure, but against OKW its not even possible at all
Can u actually try to explain why OKW needs those base defenses? WHy cant they be bunkers like everyone else, theres no justification
8 Oct 2021, 07:12 AM
#40
Posts: 100
Would love it if more people who think the unit is fine could voice their reasoning.
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