Pfuss vs AssEngi

For me the bottom line is:
Assgrens are quite weak on approach without having any own approach tools. Once they drop 1 or 2 models, they are scrapped and you can hit retreat instantly.

But in the end this is irrelevant because the whole company has no selling points. Assgrens aren't a selling point either. As somebody said: Pershing instead of M10 could be interesting (especially because of its missing own repairing crew -> Assgrens could use their repair productively here). Still there are no solutions for USF indirect fire problem at Armor company (if only Scott and Pakhowi Barrage ability wouldn't be overnerfed).

PPSh and grease guns don't differ much in their stats. Moving affects them both similarly, losing about 25% of their static DPS.

Situation: vet 5 pfusilier behind green cover. Fully vetted cqc squad approaches from 25-30 meters and stops at 5-10.
The results are confusing.
6 men ppsh cons perfromed better then un-upgraded cav rifles, Assengies and mp40 volks. 5 men Airguards were just better and were often winning that engagement, ppshcons could win. I think if you add a sprint, ppsh cons will definitely win in this AFK situation.

So AFAIK airguards RA is similar to assengies + ppsh is very similar in terms of dps to grease gun. I did around 4-5 rounds with each squad. No idea what was that, actually. Also did a run with UKF officer. He also did win the fight.

I found this hard to believe as well, so I tested it vet 0 with flamethrower vs G43 from around a house, and the pfusi's went from losing tremendously without G43s where the assengi had 80% HP left to winning.

G43s are that good close range because they fire insanely quick. Didn't bother testing it with vet since I'd put some money that pfusi's win.

Pfusi's OP, not like it's been said for years.

Situation: vet 5 pfusilier behind green cover. Fully vetted cqc squad approaches from 25-30 meters and stops at 5-10.
The results are confusing.
6 men ppsh cons perfromed better then un-upgraded cav rifles, Assengies and mp40 volks. 5 men Airguards were just better and were often winning that engagement, ppshcons could win. I think if you add a sprint, ppsh cons will definitely win in this AFK situation.

So AFAIK airguards RA is similar to assengies + ppsh is very similar in terms of dps to grease gun. I did around 4-5 rounds with each squad. No idea what was that, actually. Also did a run with UKF officer. He also did win the fight.

Aren't Airguards 6 men or did you delete a model to even it out? If not, even after losing a model, they are still as capable as assault engineers.
I can't tell what made the difference in your tests. Maybe those are real. Do you by any chance remember if some squads dropped models early? Formation has a huge impact on which model can be focused, and if squads drop models early that is a big deal.

The point I quoted was more that the grease gun and PPSh are very similar, also when moving. The differences in performance come from something inherent to the squad, but not the weapon.

Aren't Airguards 6 men or did you delete a model to even it out? If not, even after losing a model, they are still as capable as assault engineers.
I can't tell what made the difference in your tests. Maybe those are real. Do you by any chance remember if some squads dropped models early? Formation has a huge impact on which model can be focused, and if squads drop models early that is a big deal.

The point I quoted was more that the grease gun and PPSh are very similar, also when moving. The differences in performance come from something inherent to the squad, but not the weapon.

I did delete 1 model and they still performed consistently better. That is the weird thing about all that. I'll make a more elaborate test later this day.

while Ass Engis are basically Ass Grens that mow down everything.

Imma gonna correct you here, they are essentially CAV rifles without thomposons with better RA.

Lack of Focus Fire (the statistic) is the biggest weakness of SMG teams, and why Sturmpios can seem weak sauce. FF is ALSO why Infantry Sections are so strong and were nerfed.

Spreading damage across 6 models, I could see Combat Engineers having issues.

Just tested on test map, Vet 3 w/ G43s vs Vet 3 at minimum range Combat Engineers win with 1/3 to 1/2 health. At 0 vet, its much closer but Pfusies have the edge. This does NOT include Assault Engineers needing to close the gap. AEs have the normal issue of CQC units, but lacks the tools needed to ACTUALLY close the distance, resulting in Assault Officer Syndrome. Seems good situationally, but they can't actually make that situation.

AO is getting serious juice this patch exactly because of this syndrome.

I would suggest a smoke grenade, or swap the M10 for the Pershing. Really the Pershing would fix all these issues, as Assault Engineers now have something to shove their incredible repairs into. And its called Armor Company...

Swapping between combat engine and assault engine was very confusing at first, I was gunna call BS that CE beat fussies at any range let alone point blank then I clued in.


Also I don't like smoke on ass engies, they DO get a flamer. They are supposed to fill a role similar to sturms, not replace rifles. They may lose in combat to fussies, but are much better at both laying mines and repairs than fussies are. They are opposite ends of the unit spectrum, all that is in common is timing and costs.

How can they fill a similar role to Sturm if they lose badly vs pfuss even when you manage to sneak them close enough. AssEng are only good at close combat but still lose vs a versatile unit with the best condition possible.

How can they fill a similar role to Sturm if they lose badly vs pfuss even when you manage to sneak them close enough. AssEng are only good at close combat but still lose vs a versatile unit with the best condition possible.

Sturms and ass engies are early game assault but are primarily engineers.
Both CAN fight if needed, but that's not their primary role.
Fussies are akin to rifles and penals, who will beat the brakes off most infantry.

Consider into ass engies cost the flamethrower access that the faction otherwise lacks, the standard mine that REdont carry, repair critical which is incredibly powerful on a repair unit...

Their cost does not reflect purely combat power,ass grens who ARE all costed to combat power will also take heavy losses against semi auto rifle infantry.

I DO feel that fussies are a bit too strong, but ass engies have a lot of goodies baked into their cost, its not full combat.

So I did some test and found out that it is roughly 50/50 if assengies engage from 20-25 meters and my suspicion about PPsH guards were wrong. My earlier results seemed like consisted from borderline best case scenarios.

So the question is: are panzerfusiliers that good, or perhaps most cqc infantry that bad? Once PGrens arrive vs OST, or obers - your cqc infantry become expensive ordeal. Also vehicles, hmgs etc. That is why you see much more guards then shocks with SOV. Guards, apart from having vehicle crowd control, are constantly doing damage, while cqc infantry had to go very close to do it or waste muni in the process of doing so, otherwise they have very limited use. So, in my opinion, the cqc infatnry that works have either combination of great timing+sprint with assnades (assgrens) or having something heavy hitting like tommyguns (assguards, cavrifles, rangers) so if you get close enough, you are getting the maximum out it, not some 4 seconds outdps nerfgun action. Also there are commandos, but those guys are another story, same with stormtroopers.

About Panzerfusiliers: I never found PF to be that great, but things may change after sandbag nerf and I assume after AT is on the field most cover, but tanktraps, will be temporary. Even though flame nade is great, I think sandbags was that thing that gave volks that edge over PFs.

As a side note, I wish assengies could built tanktraps. It is a the best cover and having it on actually decent combat unit (with flamer) might make it more attractive

Consider into ass engies cost the flamethrower access that the faction otherwise lacks, the standard mine that REdont carry, repair critical which is incredibly powerful on a repair unit...

Assengies would be great at any other faction, but just not for USF, especially not in this specific company. Thats why you can't discuss unit strengths in a vacuum. Vehicle crews can repair and repair criticals too. You find flamer, flame nades and mines at other overall better USF companies. Field Defenses even allow your Riflemen to do constructing jobs.
Overall Assengies are not that great within this company and faction. They would be slightly better at HeavyCav where they could patch up the Pershing in no time at least.

So I did some test and found out that it is roughly 50/50 if assengies engage from 20-25 meters and my suspicion about PPsH guards were wrong. My earlier results seemed like consisted from borderline best case scenarios.

So the question is: are panzerfusiliers that good, or perhaps most cqc infantry that bad? Once PGrens arrive vs OST, or obers - your cqc infantry become expensive ordeal. Also vehicles, hmgs etc. That is why you see much more guards then shocks with SOV. Guards, apart from having vehicle crowd control, are constantly doing damage, while cqc infantry had to go very close to do it or waste muni in the process of doing so, otherwise they have very limited use. So, in my opinion, the cqc infatnry that works have either combination of great timing+sprint with assnades (assgrens) or having something heavy hitting like tommyguns (assguards, cavrifles, rangers) so if you get close enough, you are getting the maximum out it, not some 4 seconds outdps nerfgun action. Also there are commandos, but those guys are another story, same with stormtroopers.

About Panzerfusiliers: I never found PF to be that great, but things may change after sandbag nerf and I assume after AT is on the field most cover, but tanktraps, will be temporary. Even though flame nade is great, I think sandbags was that thing that gave volks that edge over PFs.

As a side note, I wish assengies could built tanktraps. It is a the best cover and having it on actually decent combat unit (with flamer) might make it more attractive

You use them to ambush, cutting retreat path, bait and flank etc... The problem here is Pfuss will simply melt them before they could do anything. And Pfuss aren't obers or pgrens.

You use them to ambush, cutting retreat path, bait and flank etc... The problem here is Pfuss will simply melt them before they could do anything. And Pfuss aren't obers or pgrens.

You can try the same scenario (Ass Eng running at the squad from max range) with Penals and you get the same outcome. These min 1 assault squads are just not supposed to run at more expensive (slightly in this case) squads and win. They have either more utility (sprint/repair/mines/flamethrower) or scale better (5->6 men). Im not sure what you expect here to happen? Buff them so they can run at other squads and simply beat them like 2CP 360mp Shocks?

You use them to ambush, cutting retreat path, bait and flank etc... The problem here is Pfuss will simply melt them before they could do anything. And Pfuss aren't obers or pgrens.

I know how to use them, its just some cqc infantry are just simply better and some are very tricky and ultimately less cost efficient to use to a point of not even bothering building, or picking a commander with it.

So if I read this correctly a CP 0 engineer unit can not walk in trough open ground and defeat a more expensive mid range infantry that has has been upgraded with a weapon.

And that is an issue because?

And why this point of this arbitrary comparison of two units that have little in common?

If one want to use Assault engineer in combat one can simply invest in weapons for them and get good result.

The unit is cost efficient and comes with lots of utility.

You can try the same scenario (Ass Eng running at the squad from max range) with Penals and you get the same outcome. These min 1 assault squads are just not supposed to run at more expensive (slightly in this case) squads and win. They have either more utility (sprint/repair/mines/flamethrower) or scale better (5->6 men). Im not sure what you expect here to happen? Buff them so they can run at other squads and simply beat them like 2CP 360mp Shocks?

Pfuss aren't Penals and have their own utility box: G43, +7 vision range, snare and flare. And I've never said they should win from running in the open.

Pfuss aren't Penals and have their own utility box: G43, +7 vision range, snare and flare. And I've never said they should win from running in the open.

Penals cost less (mp and muni) and perform way better until g43 and get a good boost at vet 1 compared to Pfussies. There is a reason that the unit had meh pickrate in tournies while Grand Offensive was the meta commander. They are not good enough compared to volks and obers to do without sandbags.
I think their performance pre g43 is kinda alright, but in 99% of cases the outcome of the game wont differ when you mix Pfussies with volks instead of going purely volks. JLI and even Falls are just 3 times better at supplementing volks.

Penals cost less (mp and muni) and perform way better until g43 and get a good boost at vet 1 compared to Pfussies. There is a reason that the unit had meh pickrate in tournies while Grand Offensive was the meta commander. They are not good enough compared to volks and obers to do without sandbags.
I think their performance pre g43 is kinda alright, but in 99% of cases the outcome of the game wont differ when you mix Pfussies with volks instead of going purely volks. JLI and even Falls are just 3 times better at supplementing volks.

What does it have to do with AssEngi? For the record you stated that the encounter is fine because AssEngi have utilities and it is included in their price to which and responded Pfuss as well.

So if I read this correctly a CP 0 engineer unit can not walk in trough open ground and defeat a more expensive mid range infantry that has has been upgraded with a weapon.

AssEngies are 280mp/60muni 5men 7 popcap with 28 MP reinforce cost
PanzerFus are 270mp/80Muni 6men 8 popcap with 25 MP reinforce cost

Pfusies are 0Cp, same with AssEngies. The only difference is the upgrade timing.

So they are not more expensive, if anything PFs are more cost efficient and better combat unit overall, while AssEngies is just a cqc squad with flamer with ability to place wire and mines, with occasional repair (because USF more often then not does not need auxiliary repair unit. PFs are a recon/mainline hybrid, with great moving dps. Also that reinforce cost is compounded by the fact that it is CQC unit and those units bleed more then typical midrange squads.

So PFs >> Assengies, imo

AssEngies are 280mp/60muni 5men 7 popcap with 28 MP reinforce cost
PanzerFus are 270mp/80Muni 6men 8 popcap with 25 MP reinforce cost

Pfusies are 0Cp, same with AssEngies. The only difference is the upgrade timing.

So they are not more expensive, if anything PFs are more cost efficient and better combat unit overall, while AssEngies is just a cqc squad with flamer with ability to place wire and mines, with occasional repair (because USF more often then not does not need auxiliary repair unit. PFs are a recon/mainline hybrid, with great moving dps. Also that reinforce cost is compounded by the fact that it is CQC unit and those units bleed more then typical midrange squads.

So PFs >> Assengies, imo

6 men G43 PF are 295/80 munition unit and thus they there ARE more expensive than Assault engineers in both MP and munition.
(I am not even sure if OP is talking about flamers for Assault engineers since there would be little reason to go point blank with it.)

6PF are not CP 0 call-in unit, they are buildable from HQ and require upgrade to get 6men which is also different than being a call-in unit.

Comparing these two units are not really helpful since they serve different roles.

This whole thread does not really serve any real purpose because the interaction of these units one vs the other does not really say much for either unit.

It seems more like an "my assault engineers rushed PF and lost" rant than anything else.