USF and MP bleed

Jump back to quoted post2 Sep 2021, 02:27 AMVaz

It's not more men that's needed, it's more effective fighters. Throwing more bodies at elite stock AI doesn't really help.

Jump back to quoted post2 Sep 2021, 03:13 AMVaz

the bleed is only about the late game. At this stage anyone with access to elite infantry usually has a few squads. So what you are saying is true, it just doesn't help at that point. Nerfs would do more, but then we have a problem with elite infantry not fulfilling their role and then is it just some discriminitory okw nerf or axis nerf? Fighting shocks, commandos, gaurds, and paras are no picnic either. I think this is why coh1 had upkeep upgrades for USA. They knew usa was going to lose the efficiency war in that game. knights cross could get to unkillable level just like obers, the best you could do is make them retreat if you can't 1 shot them with arty or a vehicle. Even then you need to outnumber the squad 2 or 3 to 1 and you will STILL take severe losses. So the upkeep change helps, I don't know how well 6 man rifle squads are going to sit with the community and then there is the issue of getting pop capped, which happens to me a lot. The pop cap is why efficiency matters, you need to be effective with your 100 cap.

Jump back to quoted post2 Sep 2021, 01:44 AMy3ivan

why not add squads size upgrade at T3 (major)? cost 100MP and 15 FU

riflemen 5men -> 6men, Reinforce cost 27MP -> 25MP
Rear echelon 4men -> 5men, Reinforce cost 23MP -> 20MP
HMG 4men -> 5men, Reinforce cost 22MP -> 18MP
57mm AT gun 4men -> 5men, Reinforce cost 22MP -> 18MP

Jump back to quoted post2 Sep 2021, 13:38 PMFelixTHM

That's the more OP shit I've ever heard of lol. And we're living in an era of Sturmtiger.

Jump back to quoted post2 Sep 2021, 23:26 PMcomm_ash

Without access to stock lategame anti-elite infantry/ anti-blob, USF rifles just die. Its somewhat alright if you keep your vet 3 squads alive, but if you lose a single one and have to rebuild it, you lose. USF lategame AT is mostly fine with the Jackson, but something needs to be done about lategame AI now that the Scott got nerfed. Shermans are nice, but unviable against lategame OKW especially.

I personally don't think a "logistics" upgrade that makes rifles a bit more cost efficient lategame would be a terrible idea. Maybe lock it behind all the other USF techs (IE all 3 officers + the two side techs.)

Jump back to quoted post3 Sep 2021, 23:52 PMVaz

You think bars are the answer? LMAO. How many bars needed to stop a vet3-5 ober/fall? Falls practicly kill the squad in 1 volley of fire. If I had time for some cheat mod, I'd do it here. How many vet3 2x bar rifles do you need? I'm guessing obers need at least 3 if not more once they can apply suppression.

How many bars do you think you can get without map control?

Jump back to quoted post3 Sep 2021, 23:01 PMthedarkarmadillo

if only there was some way to increase rifles DPS output substantially. it would have to concentrate DPS on a single model to make the lower target size of unvetted units matter less, and maybe fire on the move to keep with the USF theme? maybe even allow squads to carry 2 of them? i doubt relic would ever go for such a crazy strong bonus like allowing any squad in the faction, including free ones get 2 AI weapons that fire on the move, increase DPS at all ranges and concentrate DPS on models but id be willing to start a petition if i knew people would sign it.

Jump back to quoted post4 Sep 2021, 01:36 AMcomm_ash

It would be a nice idea, if USF lategame AI didn't keep getting nerfed when it is working right. I just watched a match with VonIvan and Sib, and they just struggled against lategame OKW. BAR rifles with vet 3 are fine in lategame, but as soon as you start losing them, it is GG if you don't have something doctrinal to save your ass, because USF stock lategame anti-infantry is either bad or very fragile.

losing your vetted units is SUPPOSED to hurt, thats why they put the fancy stars on them. this is the case for each and every single faction in the entire game. it, belive it or not is a game mechanic, and one core to the design of the game at that. rifles are lucky they can slap 120mu on a fresh squad and still kill things through volume of fire

As is, you basically go for calliopes or suffer. I would love a game where I didn't need to rely on rifles. I have advocated for other changes to US units to help them in this area. But if nothing else is done, then rifles do need something to help with the lategame bleed.

you should try one of the other 4 factions then if you dont want to rely on rifles. usf was designed SPECIFICALLY to rely on rifles.


The same issue was occuring to grenadiers despite Wehr having the tools needed to deal with infantry lategame, so they received a similar buff to help them scale and not bleed out the user. Or do you think that was unnecessary as well?

out of curiosity, are these grens you speak of capable of double arming BARs? are these grens not also 25% smaller in squad size resulting in a much more wipeable squad? do these grens beniit from a mobile retreat point and AOE heals? are these grens not have to be static and thus more vulnerable in order to make use of their weapon upgrade?

its comparisons like this that really make it appear you dont understand the game or game design.
you cannot simply cherry pick things like grens getting a late game survivability buff and ignore that they are the squishiest mainline in the game

Jump back to quoted post4 Sep 2021, 05:45 AMcomm_ash

Lol, it seems I have touched a nerve. I'm not even going to bother responding to the ad hominum attacks about not having played the game. The reason I brought up losing rifles is because other armies don't get hurt nearly as much by having a unit wiped lategame as USF with its rifles. I feel like you kinda agreed with said point by talking about how much US is reliant on rifles. I have no issue with rifles being an important core of the faction.

The point is USF struggles with MP bleed lategame, and this was a suggested fix. If you have another fix, please go ahead and state so, otherwise just say you don't think any changes are necessary. In my opinion at least, the reason USF got upkeep reduction upgrades in COH1 are specifically to fix this issue with an army reliant on a single unit type in lategame, and that such a help may be necessary in COH2.

Jump back to quoted post4 Sep 2021, 15:51 PMFelixTHM

This is quite wrong though.

In the late game Vet 0 Volks are trash, Vet 0 Cons are trash, Vet 0 IS are trash, Vet 0 Grens are also trash. It's a concept that applies to every faction - veterancy matters. A reinforce cost reduction tech is reasonable but additional men is too insane. Even for 6-man Cons adding 1 extra man with no weapon slots is already a huge impact. And 5-man Grens were so OP a couple of patches ago.