For Mother Russia - working as intended?

Now how about the fact that this standardisation had the wrong impact as soviet units need to be closer to be a simaler threat. Also that basicly every axis tank has a pintle making it even easier to stop the sprinting from any direction.

Thanks for summarizing in your two posts. Yeah it is simply totally dumb that every pintle, every shooting crewman or even PAK/TD hit will stop the sprint, even if dealing next to no damage.

And yeah OKW and Brits with similar commander abilities are not impacted by the same problem. That is the problem of simple standardization not fitting unit composition.

Thanks for summarizing in your two posts. Yeah it is simply totally dumb that every pintle, every shooting crewman or even PAK/TD hit will stop the sprint, even if dealing next to no damage.

And yeah OKW and Brits with similar commander abilities are not impacted by the same problem.

This sound like a rant that is false.

OKW Unit under valiant assault/for the father land/radio silence ARE impacted since they will also stop when under fire.

Unit with assault operation do not get sprint.

In addition none of these abilities provide offensive bonuses to support weapons. That ability is fine.

That is the problem of simple standardization not fitting unit composition.

Again incorrect.

Maybe it does not fit your "unit composition" of spamming Shock troops and PTRS Penal and expecting to overrun both enemy infatry and vehicles by attacking frontally using FMR but that is actually an improvement in game play because such tactics should not be promoted.

"working as intended?"
Yes it is

This sound like a rant that is false.

If you think it sounds like a rant this is just an interpretation of you that I want to reject.

OKW Unit under valiant assault/for the father land/radio silence ARE impacted since they will also stop when under fire.

Unit with assault operation do not get sprint.

If you not take the time to read all my posts I can't help you, because the things you said here are pretty clear. They are not affected by the same problem because they are far more suited for long range combat.

Assault operation: I talked about a movement bonus multiple times here. Units with Assault Operation get a movement bonus which ends if under fire, just the same mechanic like FMR, VA or Radio silence.

At least three out of four of your "false"/"incorrect" statements happen because you don't take the time to read correctly or make assumptions.

Again incorrect.

Please don't confuse your assumptions / your perspective with facts. Thx.

Maybe it does not fit your "unit composition" of spamming Shock troops and PTRS Penal and expecting to overrun both enemy infatry and vehicles by attacking frontally using FMR but that is actually an improvement in game play because such tactics should not be promoted.

That are your assumptions again. Don't try to interpret how I'm playing. Furhermore that doesn't work with multiple Rangers (Thompsons and elite Zooks plus Cover to Cover) vs a halfway decent opponent, so why should it work with Penals and Shock troops?

"working as intended?"
Yes it is

Just no, because faction design wasn't considered.

If you think it sounds like a rant this is just an interpretation of you that I want to reject.


If you not take the time to read all my posts I can't help you, because the things you said here are pretty clear. They are not affected by the same problem because they are far more suited for long range combat.

And an attack from long range is simply less effective than an attack at close range since it gives the defender the time to react.

And if you want this debate to move forward PLS be specific and explain which abilities and units you are talking about because general comment do not say much.

Assault operation: I talked about a movement bonus multiple times here. Units with Assault Operation get a movement bonus which ends if under fire, just the same mechanic like FMR, VA or Radio silence.

That is false.

The mechanism is not the same, units move slightly faster and fire on the move, the do not sprint.

The speed boost does not stop if they come under fire.

At least three out of four of your "false"/"incorrect" statements happen because you don't take the time to read correctly or make assumptions.

Then explain specifically which and why.

Please don't confuse your assumptions / your perspective with facts. Thx.

I don't. There is opinion and there is fact. For instance you were wrong about other similar abilities not have spring cancel when under fire and that is a fact and not an opinion.

You are welcomed.

That are your assumptions again. Don't try to interpret how I'm playing. Furhermore that doesn't work with multiple Rangers (Thompsons and elite Zooks plus Cover to Cover) vs a halfway decent opponent, so why should it work with Penals and Shock troops?


Just no, because faction design wasn't considered.

Yes it was an assumption but one based on the fact that through out this debate you focusing on Shock troops and PTRS Penal and I do not see denying it.

Cover to Cover does not provide any offensive bonus, is an area ability and it does not come with AT satchels.

The sprint should change to also be cancel when under fire.

I am not sure what your point is.

Iyo is FMR a bad ability?

Iyo the other abilities of the same class are better and yes which ones?

Iyo is Counterattack Tactics as weak commander that need to a buff?

You say its a usefull ability. That is true it affects more then just inf wich is great. Just i am not sure if and how a maxim will supress better with 50% accuracy buff. Sprint is the biggest part of the ability. Thats what gives the edge on a agressive mobile faction. For okw such abilities even sprint only out of combat can devastating because their guys can do their damage at max range. Their combat bonusses being lower during the ability shows that.

But i agree with op that this nerf was the wrong way. Soviets are affected more with this kind of nerf/bringing in line. Them being in large a faction with short to mid range inf.

faction wasent kept in mind here imo. Just ow hey thats different that isent right, while imo soviets play very different more so then any other faction. Nerfing the combat bonusses would have been the better choice.

But i agree with op that this nerf was the wrong way. Soviets are affected more with this kind of nerf/bringing in line. Them being in large a faction with short to mid range inf.

faction wasent kept in mind here imo. Just ow hey thats different that isent right, while imo soviets play very different more so then any other faction. Nerfing the combat bonusses would have been the better choice.

That is my basic matter, that Vipper denies to accept. Factional differences are real and because of that a similar ability hasn't the same performance at different factions without specific adjustments. You need factional solutions to make it work.

I don't. There is opinion and there is fact. For instance you were wrong about other similar abilities not have spring cancel when under fire and that is a fact and not an opinion.

I will explain with your next statement:

That is false.The mechanism is not the same, units move slightly faster and fire on the move, the do not sprint.

The speed boost does not stop if they come under fire.


Then explain specifically which and why.

Your false is incorrect. How funny is that?!?

Please start a game of CoH2, take Commando doctrine and try Assault Operations. Observe that the movement bonus DOES stops under fire. Then come back. You see now? Thats is part of the basic problem about of all your "false" and "incorrect". And this is yet a real fact and no assumption / perspective.

Cover to Cover does not provide any offensive bonus, is an area ability and it does not come with AT satchels.

Rangers don't need 15% accuracy bonus to wipe like crazy at close range and the area ist big enough to use it where you need it. The additional fast smoke of the ability is much better than an offensive bonus (not a fact but my perspective, you see the difference between fact and perspective?). They don't need satchel either because they use sprint to get into range with elite zooks or get a second salvo at retreating vehicles. But in the end they can be stopped for sure like Penal/Shock Troop combo with sprint could be stopped.

The sprint should change to also be cancel when under fire.

And Assgren Sprint too? How useless is sprint when it just takes a single shot to stop it...

I will explain with your next statement:



Your false is incorrect. How funny is that?!?

Please start a game of CoH2, take Commando doctrine and try Assault Operations. Observe that the movement bonus DOES stops under fire. Then come back. You see now? Thats is part of the basic problem about of all your "false" and "incorrect". And this is yet a real fact and no assumption / perspective.

I have used assault. The speed bonus does not cancel under fire.

Even if it did it would still not be the same mechanic because units with assault move faster and fire on the move unlike Sprint where do not.

The only funny thing I see that you talk about 3 things I got wrong and then you decided to post about another.

Rangers don't need 15% accuracy bonus to wipe like crazy at close range and the area ist big enough to use it where you need it.

But the do need a munition upgrade unlike shock

The additional fast smoke of the ability is much better than an offensive bonus (not a fact but my perspective, you see the difference between fact and perspective?).

If you are stating opinion and not fact I suggest you add in my opinion else it really seems you stating a fact...
(do you see the difference on how to state fact and perspective?)
Or
you can simply drop sarcasm and stick to the topic if you really do not want to derail this thread.

They don't need satchel either because they use sprint to get into range with elite zooks or get a second salvo at retreating vehicles. But in the end they can be stopped for sure like Penal/Shock Troop combo with sprint could be stopped.

So now Ranger that had Thompson to kill at close range have Bazookas?

In the end of the why are complaining about other abilities like OKW when your comparison is with different type of ability which is cover to cover?

And Assgren Sprint too? How useless is sprint when it just takes a single shot to stop it...

Is there any relevance between a command aura and an unit's ability?

Because I bring up random things also Ourah too?

Once more sprint is cancel in most abilities that provide offensive bonus and thus FMR works as intended. (FACT)

If in your opinion FRM should be replaced be cover to cover post that instead of trying present FMR as a bad ability. The ability is inline if not better than other similar abilities and the commander is strong and popular. (FACT)

I have used assault. The speed bonus does not cancel under fire.

Again: Assault Operations (global Commandos doctrine ability for 6 CPs). I tried it multiple times. They stop moving once getting under fire and starting returning fire while moving at normal speed (as they would do without the ability). Their speed before getting under fire looks like FMR, I assume they are sprinting too. Not sure what you want to tell me here. Im pretty confident it is a FACT that I'm right about it [fact]. So it remains to be very funny for me.

Assault Operations was like you tell me once ago, but it seems it got patched like the other similar abilities [assumption].

If you are stating opinion and not fact I suggest you add in my opinion else it really seems you stating a fact...

Perfect suggestion. Imo start by yourself please and do that from now on. For example "Imo this is false." That is way better than "False" [perspective]. Thx.

So now Ranger that had Thompson to kill at close range have Bazookas?

Since you are always seem to only read the last post [perspective] I will repeat one of my recent posts that you should have read because you reacted directly to that post. I can understand that it is hard to keep track if you are posting at so many threads at the same time. This is a personal service just for you:

That are your assumptions again. Don't try to interpret how I'm playing. Furhermore that doesn't work with multiple Rangers (Thompsons and elite Zooks plus Cover to Cover) vs a halfway decent opponent, so why should it work with Penals and Shock troops?

There is no way I was talking about a single Ranger squad with Thompsons and elite Zooks. I was talking about multiple Rangers (some with Thompsons/some with elite Zooks] in comparison to Penals + Shock Troops, that are multiple squads too. You are always assuming the worst out of my sentences without context to my earlier postings and derailing the thread by doing so [perspective/assumption].

The ability is inline if not better than other similar abilities and the commander is strong and popular. (FACT)

Lets show you what I mean, when you are so absolutely about facts and false/incorrect.
In the above sentence the only pure fact is that the commander is popular, and thats even only true if you add popular at commander layout. You just don't know how often it gets picked, I do neither. It is a fact too that it is more popular in 2vs2 and above regarding commander layout than in 1vs1. The complete first and middle part of your sentence marked as a fact is mixed with your assumptions/perspective already. You are way to absolute while mixing assumptions and perspective in your posts [perspective].

Again: Assault Operations (global Commandos doctrine ability for 6 CPs). I tried it multiple times. They stop moving once getting under fire and starting returning fire while moving at normal speed (as they would do without the ability). Their speed before getting under fire looks like FMR, I assume they are sprinting too. Not sure what you want to tell me here. Im pretty confident it is a FACT that I'm right about it [fact]. So it remains to be very funny for me.

Assault Operations was like you tell me once ago, but it seems it got patched like the other similar abilities [assumption].

Name: "Assault"
Duration: 45 Seconds
Cost: 70 Munitions

+15% accuracy.
+25% speed and can fire on the move.
Typhoon aircraft will recon across the adjacent, or front-line, sectors to your territory points.
The amount of aircraft depends on how many front-line sectors you own.
source:
https://www.coh2.org/guides/88945/the-coh2-ability-guide-mark-2-0#2667


Name: "For Mother Russia!"
Duration: 45 Seconds
Cost: 70 Munitions
+50% accuracy.
Squads will sprint.
+50% accuracy.
+25% accuracy.

source:
https://www.coh2.org/guides/88945/the-coh2-ability-guide-mark-2-0#2667

The guide is not updated to last patch that does not matter because the moving bonus has not changed.

Fact:
Bonuses for FMR is sprint, for AO a speed bonus and the ability to fire on the move.
In sort the are different.

Perfect suggestion. Imo start by yourself please and do that from now on. For example "Imo this is false." That is way better than "False" [perspective]. Thx.


Since you are always seem to only read the last post [perspective] I will repeat one of my recent posts that you should have read because you reacted directly to that post. I can understand that it is hard to keep track if you are posting at so many threads at the same time. This is a personal service just for you:


There is no way I was talking about a single Ranger squad with Thompsons and elite Zooks. I was talking about multiple Rangers (some with Thompsons/some with elite Zooks] in comparison to Penals + Shock Troops, that are multiple squads too. You are always assuming the worst out of my sentences without context to my earlier postings and derailing the thread by doing so [perspective/assumption].


Lets show you what I mean, when you are so absolutely about facts and false/incorrect.
In the above sentence the only pure fact is that the commander is popular, and thats even only true if you add popular at commander layout. You just don't know how often it gets picked, I do neither. It is a fact too that it is more popular in 2vs2 and above regarding commander layout than in 1vs1. The complete first and middle part of your sentence marked as a fact is mixed with your assumptions/perspective already. You are way to absolute while mixing assumptions and perspective in your posts [perspective].

It is unclear to me how you use the term "pure fact" so pls clarify what you mean.

"The ability is inline if not better than other similar abilities"

Pls provide you arguments the ability is weaker than other abilities of each class if you disagree with my claim.

"and the commander is strong"
Commander has KV-1 a very strong Tank
Commander has B-4 which is considered to be op and probably will be changed
Commander has Shock troops one of the strongest Soviet infatry

Pls provide you arguments the commander is weaker than other commanders if you disagree with my claim.

"and popular. (FACT)"

Counter tactics stat from July 22-28 stats:

1vs1 added in load-out 218 times 7 most popular
2vs2 added in load-out 1132 times 4 most popular
3vs3 added in load-out 761 times 4 most popular
4vs4 added in load-out 3542 times 4 most popular

source:
https://coh2stats.com/stats/week/1616371200/4v4/soviet?statsSource=all

Fact:
The commander is popular even if one does not know exactly how many times it was picked.

Being popular and been used the most are two different things.

The fact that it so common in load-out across all modes means that is popular even if it not picked every time.

Imo this way of debating is not very helpful so lets try to avoid, pls focus more on the topic of "For Mother Russia" and less in repeating the "derail" mantra. If in your opinion something I posted is not relevant pls be specific about.

Name: "Assault"
...
https://www.coh2.org/guides/88945/the-coh2-ability-guide-mark-2-0#2667

The guide is not updated to last patch that does not matter because the moving bonus has not changed.

Fact:
Bonuses for FMR is sprint, for AO a speed bonus and the ability to fire on the move.
In sort the are different.

The ability seems to behave like FMR ingame. I assume that your source is outdated. I like to test it by myself when I see outdated data. Units stop moving faster when getting under fire clearly in current patch. I strongly question what you call a fact here. Are you playing a different game or are you not testing it?

It is unclear to me how you use the term "pure fact" so pls clarify what you mean.

I used the term "pure fact" to get away from your mixing of facts with perspective/assumption that you mark as facts. You just did it again this time with outdated data you can't be sure off. Normally a fact should be a pure fact already. So please put "pure fact" on a level with a "fact" as it should be.

"and the commander is strong"
Commander has KV-1 a very strong Tank
Commander has B-4 which is considered to be op and probably will be changed
Commander has Shock troops one of the strongest Soviet infatry

Pls provide you arguments the commander is weaker than other commanders if you disagree with my claim.

I see what you ar doing here. It is a derail from my original matter about FMR into a wide open discussion about the strength of a commander that leads to nothing. Can you see that too? I won't follow that bait. Lets get back to FMR please.

"and popular. (FACT)"

Counter tactics stat from July 22-28 stats:

1vs1 added in load-out 218 times 7 most popular
2vs2 added in load-out 1132 times 4 most popular
3vs3 added in load-out 761 times 4 most popular
4vs4 added in load-out 3542 times 4 most popular

source:
https://coh2stats.com/stats/week/1616371200/4v4/soviet?statsSource=all

You corrected what I was complaining about. Perfect, nothing more to complain. Yeah, like that it is what I call a fact too.

"The ability is inline if not better than other similar abilities"

Pls provide you arguments the ability is weaker than other abilities of each class if you disagree with my claim.

I feel like explaining this again and again. I'll do once more just for you:

Abilities can be similar or even the same when it comes to effect, timing and cost. That is what you call "inline". Still they can perform way better at some factions than at others becasue factions are asymmetrical. That is what I call unbalanced or not inline in true performance.

If you use such an ability as FMR on an army that has a lot of long ranged infantry for example like Obers with LMG or IS with double Bren the ability is perfect. Why? You can use the sprint to quickly reposition behind the front line and once you get under fire at about 30-40 range you are at your most efficient combat range already when it comes to trading damage effectively. You make full use of sprint and you make full use of the combat boni once you get under fire. Take cover, fire back and profit.

If you use such an ability as FMR on an army which infantry is focused on medium to close combat, you can quickly reposition behind the lines too, but once you get under fire at 30-40 range you are still far away from your most efficient combat range. These units benefit far less.

So you just can't put standardized abilities in each faction if you have asymmetrical faction design. Originally FMR and VA were far more different, because they were made for different factions. FMR gave you a strong timed close assault and a weakening afterwards. That fitted the faction/commander design very well.

FMR should focus on movement for infantry to strengthen the ability to close in. VA and AO should focus more on accuracy/reload/cooldown to give an advantage at dps at long to medium ranges.

When your sprinting troops get shot at while sprinting they stop sprinting and start to return fire.

And you're not using attack-move instead of regular move?

And you're not using attack-move instead of regular move?

Completely, I'm moving with right click.

Completely, I'm moving with right click.

'right click' doesn't say that much, but I believe we mean the same thing. Imo the sprint should cancel but they should keep moving at the regular speed (thus moving & shooting).

'right click' doesn't say that much, but I believe we mean the same thing. Imo the sprint should cancel but they should keep moving at the regular speed (thus moving & shooting).

That is exactly what happens.

The ability seems to behave like FMR ingame. I assume that your source is outdated. I like to test it by myself when I see outdated data. Units stop moving faster when getting under fire clearly in current patch. I strongly question what you call a fact here. Are you playing a different game or are you not testing it?



I used the term "pure fact" to get away from your mixing of facts with perspective/assumption that you mark as facts. You just did it again this time with outdated data you can't be sure off. Normally a fact should be a pure fact already. So please put "pure fact" on a level with a "fact" as it should be.



I see what you ar doing here. It is a derail from my original matter about FMR into a wide open discussion about the strength of a commander that leads to nothing. Can you see that too? I won't follow that bait. Lets get back to FMR please.


You corrected what I was complaining about. Perfect, nothing more to complain. Yeah, like that it is what I call a fact too.

PLS give it rest with "fact" thing you have started and your focus on trying to prove me wrong, else I will be forced to continue answering in similar manner.

The bonus speed bonus Assault and FMR are simply different one sprint that a speed boost.
If in your opinion some how an undocumented change has taken place the infantries lose their speed bonus under fire I suggest you make a video about and post in bugs.

I feel like explaining this again and again. I'll do once more just for you:

Abilities can be similar or even the same when it comes to effect, timing and cost. That is what you call "inline". Still they can perform way better at some factions than at others becasue factions are asymmetrical. That is what I call unbalanced or not inline in true performance.

That is an accurate description but that does not mean that ability is bad that synergies better with certain unit or faction. So far you have been arguing that the ability is "bad". If we can agree that ability is inline with other similar abilities than what you are suggesting that this ability should be replaced by another better suited for shock troops and PTRS Penals.

If you use such an ability as FMR on an army that has a lot of long ranged infantry for example like Obers with LMG or IS with double Bren the ability is perfect. Why? You can use the sprint to quickly reposition behind the front line and once you get under fire at about 30-40 range you are at your most efficient combat range already when it comes to trading damage effectively. You make full use of sprint and you make full use of the combat boni once you get under fire. Take cover, fire back and profit.

That is accurate but a long range attack is far less dangerous because the fight takes longer and the enemy can react and retreat if he need to safely.

The sprint give a slight edge in initial placing and that is it.

If you use such an ability as FMR on an army which infantry is focused on medium to close combat, you can quickly reposition behind the lines too, but once you get under fire at 30-40 range you are still far away from your most efficient combat range. These units benefit far less.

Now ask yourself should one be able to attack with a blob of close quarter units frontally through open ground and because he press an ability?

Imo he should not.

So you just can't put standardized abilities in each faction if you have asymmetrical faction design.

One can compare and standardize abilities taking into account each faction design.
Shock troops is not the only unit available to Soviets.

Originally FMR and VA were far more different, because they were made for different factions. FMR gave you a strong timed close assault and a weakening afterwards. That fitted the faction/commander design very well.

PLS provide the stat for FMR and VA at the time that made them so different.

Keep in mind that there was a time that Both KV-1 and B-4 where not that great so the commander was not that popular.

FMR should focus on movement for infantry to strengthen the ability to close in.

That would make an ability that useful for all units, useful only for Shock troops (AT satchel Penal)

VA and AO should focus more on accuracy/reload/cooldown to give an advantage at dps at long to medium ranges.

I am not sure why in your opinion AO should work different from FMR since it available with commandos that are also CQC units.

PLS give it rest with "fact" thing you have started and your focus on trying to prove me wrong, else I will be forced to continue answering in similar manner.

You were the one who hammered every second argument directly with false or incorrect. It was my intention to show you that this behaviour is hasty and not helpful in a discussion.

The bonus speed bonus Assault and FMR are simply different one sprint that a speed boost.
If in your opinion some how an undocumented change has taken place the infantries lose their speed bonus under fire I suggest you make a video about and post in bugs..

I don't think its a bug since it fits the standardization of all other similar abilities, maybe the patch note was forgotten. What should i do to proof it to you? I just go ingame start CoH2 in Cheatmode, spawn some AI units and some own units about 80 range further, activate Assault and try to move past the enemy troops with move order. Every time the enemy shots at my troops they fall back in normal move. This happens to Commandos with hold fire too, they start moving normally (without shooting on hold fire) once getting under fire. This is totally clear to me and evrybody who plays Commando doctrine on a regular basis.

Additionally the movement bonus of Assault is a lot more than +0,25, I assume it is sprinting.

That is an accurate description but that does not mean that ability is bad that synergies better with certain unit or faction. So far you have been arguing that the ability is "bad". If we can agree that ability is inline with other similar abilities than what you are suggesting that this ability should be replaced by another better suited for shock troops and PTRS Penals.

Absolutely. I would say that is better suited for soviet infantry lineup, since cons are not good at long range either.

PLS provide the stat for FMR and VA at the time that made them so different.

I don't know the exact old stats of both abilities, but I remember the discussions about FMR beeing so much better than VA initated by Wehrmacht players. FMR was clearly stronger while active and was made for direct combat assault, it had an additional aftermath that weakend all soviet troops.

Keep in mind that there was a time that Both KV-1 and B-4 where not that great so the commander was not that popular

Keep in mind there was a time that KV-1 was not great but FMR Shock troops rocked enemy infantry away and B4 with Vet1 precision strike was a beast (hitting anything in range with pinpoint accuracy). The original Counterattack commander clearly beats its current incarnation. Current B4 makes it fun playing again, but with nerf to FMR its still nowhere near the original one [perspective].

I am not sure why in your opinion AO should work different from FMR since it available with commandos that are also CQC units.

Ironically you brought up a very good example for factional asymmetry maing an similar ability strong or weak. First of all Brits doing good with current implementation of Assault giving out of combat sprint and boni in combat. Reasons: It greatly benefits the typical IS double Bren build and Commandos with Brens are doing fine too. But in the end it also benefits the CQC Commandos without Brens. Instead of having only +25% move they now double their move out of combat. This leads to the situation that they can sprint undetected under the nose of the enemy. Just camouflage them, set them on hold fire and you can cover double the distance to the next cover without getting spotted. Perfect.

Thats the reason why sprinting out of combat is way better than +25% move (in and out combat) for Commandos and why +25% move (in and out combat) is way better for Shock Troops than sprinting out of combat -> Factional asymmetrie.

You were the one who hammered every second argument directly with false or incorrect. It was my intention to show you that this behaviour is hasty and not helpful in a discussion.

It does not matter who started (I can argue you started...), once more pls simply quite it.

I don't think its a bug since it fits the standardization of all other similar abilities, maybe the patch note was forgotten. What should i do to proof it to you? I just go ingame start CoH2 in Cheatmode, spawn some AI units and some own units about 80 range further, activate Assault and try to move past the enemy troops with move order. Every time the enemy shots at my troops they fall back in normal move. This happens to Commandos with hold fire too, they start moving normally (without shooting on hold fire) once getting under fire. This is totally clear to me and evrybody who plays Commando doctrine on a regular basis.

Additionally the movement bonus of Assault is a lot more than +0,25, I assume it is sprinting.

It is not sprinting. Unit that sprint do not fire.

Absolutely. I would say that is better suited for soviet infantry lineup, since cons are not good at long range either.


I don't know the exact old stats of both abilities, but I remember the discussions about FMR beeing so much better than VA initated by Wehrmacht players. FMR was clearly stronger while active and was made for direct combat assault, it had an additional aftermath that weakend all soviet troops.

If you do not have the exact stat pls do not bring thing up the simply confuse the debate.

The far DPS of Penal and conscripts is good especially once vetted.

Keep in mind there was a time that KV-1 was not great but FMR Shock troops rocked enemy infantry away and B4 with Vet1 precision strike was a beast (hitting anything in range with pinpoint accuracy). The original Counterattack commander clearly beats its current incarnation. Current B4 makes it fun playing again, but with nerf to FMR its still nowhere near the original one [perspective].

The combination of the extra damage from FMR and the B4 was broken. The commander might had been stronger at some point but the design was worse. I think we can agree that we want better design not worse.

Ironically you brought up a very good example for factional asymmetry maing an similar ability strong or weak. First of all Brits doing good with current implementation of Assault giving out of combat sprint and boni in combat. Reasons: It greatly benefits the typical IS double Bren build and Commandos with Brens are doing fine too. But in the end it also benefits the CQC Commandos without Brens. Instead of having only +25% move they now double their move out of combat. This leads to the situation that they can sprint undetected under the nose of the enemy. Just camouflage them, set them on hold fire and you can cover double the distance to the next cover without getting spotted. Perfect.

Thats the reason why sprinting out of combat is way better than +25% move (in and out combat) for Commandos and why +25% move (in and out combat) is way better for Shock Troops than sprinting out of combat -> Factional asymmetrie.

You can use ST44 ober and radio silence if you like.

The change effect all faction that use CQQ units not just Soviet.

My point are:
The change was implement for most abilities of the same

FMR is inline with other similar abilities

The commander is solid

Now if in your opinion Soviet need a commander with an ability similar to cover for CQC, my suggestion would be an ""infatry" oriented commander that did not come with Armor/Arty.

It does not matter who started (I can argue you started...), once more pls simply quite it.
It is not sprinting. Unit that sprint do not fire.

Is it that hard to understand that they don't shoot while moving faster (sprinting)? They simply stop sprinting move normaly and shoot since their out of combat sprint get canceled when in combat. Assault is no exception, it works like FMR, VA, Radio silence...
I don't know what is so hard about that to just saying that the "false" was to hasty and without enough background knowledge. Move on if you can't just say something that simple, I won't bother you again.

If you do not have the exact stat pls do not bring thing up the simply confuse the debate.

You seem to really need it:

FMR infantry: +0.5 armor, +50% accuracy, squads will sprint.
FMR weapon teams: +0.5 armor, +25% accuracy to AT guns, Mortars, and all artillery.
+50% accuracy to HMG's

VA infantry: All infantry on the map will sprint.
VA weapon teams: no effect

Source: Ability guide 1.0
https://www.coh2.org/guides/52852/the-coh2-ability-guide

As you see FMR was far better than VA. Especially the +0.5 armor was a huge bonus.

The combination of the extra damage from FMR and the B4 was broken. The commander might had been stronger at some point but the design was worse. I think we can agree that we want better design not worse.

Yes, we agree about that. While removal of B4 precision strike was necessary and the current B4 is a lot better designed, Imo standardization of FMR is a worse design, because it doesn't take into account the soviet faction design which leans to close/mid combat.

The change effect all faction that use CQQ units not just Soviet.

My point are:
The change was implement for most abilities of the same

FMR is inline with other similar abilities

We already were at this point before. Ability is fine if you compare it on paper, ability is not fine if you look at faction design, unit composition and asymmetry. What is fine for one faction isn't necessarily for another. I do think we won't get any closer at this point.

Is it that hard to understand that they don't shoot while moving faster (sprinting)? They simply stop sprinting move normaly and shoot since their out of combat sprint get canceled when in combat. Assault is no exception, it works like FMR, VA, Radio silence...
I don't know what is so hard about that to just saying that the "false" was to hasty and without enough background knowledge. Move on if you can't just say something that simple, I won't bother you again.

"Is it that hard to understand that" sprinting and moving faster are not the same thing?

Entities even use different animation when they sprint.

You seem to really need it:

FMR infantry: +0.5 armor, +50% accuracy, squads will sprint.
FMR weapon teams: +0.5 armor, +25% accuracy to AT guns, Mortars, and all artillery.
+50% accuracy to HMG's

VA infantry: All infantry on the map will sprint. (You forgot the 25% accuracy bonus)
VA weapon teams: no effect

Source: Ability guide 1.0
https://www.coh2.org/guides/52852/the-coh2-ability-guide

As you see FMR was far better than VA. Especially the +0.5 armor was a huge bonus.

It still is, it affect support weapons also.

Yes, we agree about that. While removal of B4 precision strike was necessary and the current B4 is a lot better designed, Imo standardization of FMR is a worse design, because it doesn't take into account the soviet faction design which leans to close/mid combat.

The ability work fine for mid units, it even work fine for CQC units.

They simply can not sprint across open ground and attack frontally any more, but that does not mean that all do not benefit from it.

We already were at this point before. Ability is fine if you compare it on paper, ability is not fine if you look at faction design, unit composition and asymmetry. What is fine for one faction isn't necessarily for another. I do think we won't get any closer at this point.

We have to agree to disagree.
The ability work fine for the faction design.

Just because it was to used to be an OP combination with Shock troops it does not mean that it some how bad.