How about giving cp4 sector arty

Title. why no give it a single sector targeting sector arty instead of mark vehicle which will do jack squat for Ostheer.

mark target is the version that gives the enemy tank an armour reduction and a target size increase meaning all AT sources will be more likely to hit and more likely to pen. how pray tell will that be useless for ostheer?

mark target is the version that gives the enemy tank an armour reduction and a target size increase meaning all AT sources will be more likely to hit and more likely to pen. how pray tell will that be useless for ostheer?

Ostheer's AT capabilities are already very good pen and acc wise so this is pretty useless.

I can see the ability being pretty good with Fortified Armor Doctrine

ost may have a couple of high-pen options in their arsenal, but i fail to see how that makes mark target redundant. the -25% armor debuff is actually a 33% better chance to pen and makes a huge difference in many tank vs tank matchups.
for example, the Pz.IV with its 110 far pen has a chance of about 69% to penetrate the armor of a regular sherman at max range. with mark target that goes up to 92%. and if you calculate the probability of killing that sherman with the first 4 consecutive shots (excluding acc for simplicity), your looking at a 23% chance to do so without mark target versus 70% with the debuff. and that's even before factoring in the accuracy increase, which is almost always helpful.
not to mention there are also some high-armor tanks in the allied roster which can bounce even the occasional pak or panther shell... hence, i'd say the ability is far from useless.

ost may have a couple of high-pen options in their arsenal, but i fail to see how that makes mark target redundant. the -25% armor debuff is actually a 33% better chance to pen and makes a huge difference in many tank vs tank matchups.
for example, the Pz.IV with its 110 far pen has a chance of about 69% to penetrate the armor of a regular sherman at max range. with mark target that goes up to 92%. and if you calculate the probability of killing that sherman with the first 4 consecutive shots (excluding acc for simplicity), your looking at a 23% chance to do so without mark target versus 70% with the debuff. and that's even before factoring in the accuracy increase, which is almost always helpful.
not to mention there are also some high-armor tanks in the allied roster which can bounce even the occasional pak or panther shell... hence, i'd say the ability is far from useless.

that requires 2 p4s to work.. 1 to mark target stuff and another to benefit off of it. Easier to make 2 regular p4s no?

that requires 2 p4s to work.. 1 to mark target stuff and another to benefit off of it. Easier to make 2 regular p4s no?

in a vacuum... sure. but you're usually not getting the cmnd p4 just for the mark vehicle cast alone, nor is the tank itself just a giant paperweight that doesn't provide anything beyond that. the 10% DR aura may not seem too powerful, but lets your mediums eat an extra shot and makes infantry a good deal more durable against a variety of threats that could normally OHK models, such as grenades. plus, the newly added smoke shell will surely come in handy in some situations.
oh, and did i mention that it has a pretty decent gun against infantry and light vehicles, too?

Ostheer's AT capabilities are already very good pen and acc wise so this is pretty useless.

Mark will make a stug go from 70% chance to pen a churchill to 95%.that is an extreme jump in cost effeciency. Paks will be guaranteed to pen the church from max range instead of a 20% chance to bounce. Even osts most effecient AT can benifit from a massive RNG reduction and that's only a singular example. What's more, it doesn't effect YOUR units, but the enemy's, thusly improving your allies AT as well in team games. Far far FAR from useless or even pointless. It can take a Puma from 50% chance to pen at max range to 75% vs a Sherman... If THAT is useless I'd hate to try and balance your requirement for useful...

in a vacuum... sure. but you're usually not getting the cmnd p4 just for the mark vehicle cast alone, nor is the tank itself just a giant paperweight that doesn't provide anything beyond that. the 10% DR aura may not seem too powerful, but lets your mediums eat an extra shot and makes infantry a good deal more durable against a variety of threats that could normally OHK models, such as grenades. plus, the newly added smoke shell will surely come in handy in some situations.
oh, and did i mention that it has a pretty decent gun against infantry and light vehicles, too?

ur entire post was about mark target, so i commented on it.

and secondly, I used to use CP4 along with stug so that it could survive 5 shots. NOW even with 10% DR it dies in 4 shots.

Yes, you didnt mention that it has a decent gun vs inf and light tanks BUT normal p4(for only20 more fuel) can upgrade to pintle mg also and do twice the damage. As for light vehicles, it may penetrate the aaht or m20 but the CP4 ive used, fail to penetrate consistanly even stuart. Even if it does penetrate its only 80 Damage.

In conclusion, I think the CP4 might be usefull in a situation where you have no choice but to build it. On merit (for me atleast) the standard p4 is MUCH better at the current costs.

forgot about grenades : id want to move out of grenades rather then stand inside and take 10% less damage.

Mark will make a stug go from 70% chance to pen a churchill to 95%.that is an extreme jump in cost effeciency. Paks will be guaranteed to pen the church from max range instead of a 20% chance to bounce. Even osts most effecient AT can benifit from a massive RNG reduction and that's only a singular example. What's more, it doesn't effect YOUR units, but the enemy's, thusly improving your allies AT as well in team games. Far far FAR from useless or even pointless. It can take a Puma from 50% chance to pen at max range to 75% vs a Sherman... If THAT is useless I'd hate to try and balance your requirement for useful...

I respectfully disagree.. 50 to 75% is still useless because of the puma high rate of fire, and besides pak already has 100% pen vs sherman.

Ost benefits from better positioning so even instead of sector arty or mark target, I suggest giving the cp4 the abliity to call in flares, 50 range 60 muni cost. It fits well being a command tank and all.

CP4 mark target is fine. On the other hand its stat are not close to a PzIV so the pop/XP/MP cost should be closer to Ostwind instead of the PzIV.

ur entire post was about mark target, so i commented on it.

and secondly, I used to use CP4 along with stug so that it could survive 5 shots. NOW even with 10% DR it dies in 4 shots.

Yes, you didnt mention that it has a decent gun vs inf and light tanks BUT normal p4(for only20 more fuel) can upgrade to pintle mg also and do twice the damage. As for light vehicles, it may penetrate the aaht or m20 but the CP4 ive used, fail to penetrate consistanly even stuart. Even if it does penetrate its only 80 Damage.

In conclusion, I think the CP4 might be usefull in a situation where you have no choice but to build it. On merit (for me atleast) the standard p4 is MUCH better at the current costs.

forgot about grenades : id want to move out of grenades rather then stand inside and take 10% less damage.

Yeah i think raising the DR bonus to 15% would have been a good call so it also has an effect on the StuG, but maybe that would have turned out a tad bit too powerful. In any case, I'd argue the aura is still helpful for literally any other unit you and your potential teammates may field. Might not be worth getting it just to buff a single P4 but usually you'll have a sizeable army already once the Cmnd P4 arrives on the field. Also, even if it should be common sense that eating grenades to the face should be avoided at all costs, it does sometimes happen. Not to mention the DR it helps surviving other stuff, like Katyusha or Calliope rockets one-shotting full-health models as well...

Pen and nominal damage of the main gun isn't something worth writing home about for sure, especially if you compare it to a regular P4. It's still has great DPS overall though thanks to the high ROF and low scatter. Maybe not against tanks, but anything lighter than a Stuart will die even quicker to the Cmnd P4 than to the regular version. But, again, you'll not be getting a Cmnd P4 to fight tanks, you'll get it to buff the rest of your army to be more resilient and dish out more damage when fighting tanks. Sometimes you just need a versatile Swiss army knife instead of a brute force machete.

Anyway, the OP wasn't about how useful the unit itself may be in combat, but rather if Mark Target is cutting it or not. And to say the 25% lower armor & target size isn't useful for Ostheer is just as far from true as it gets.

15% damage reduction (and the previous 20%) are super strong buffs.
Even at 15%, a Panther would survive two additional shots, and a P4 would need 5 shots with not even a penetrating snare being sufficient to replace the last shot.

The only way to achieve the result of the StuG surviving a fourth shot without screwing with other units too much would be a very quirky 13% reduction.
This would mean that:
- StuG survives another shot (and runs away with a frustrating 3 HP, not sure how great this would be for a fair feeling of the game)
- P4 survives another shot like it does now, a snare could still kill it but only in the case that it penetrates (in contrast to now where even a bouncing snare should kill apart from bugs). If the snare bounces, the P4 now runs away with 15 HP.
- No change for the Panther.

So overall, yes it would achieve what it should. On the other hand I feel it would be a huge source of frustration for all Allied players, especially more casual players that do not know the stats (when I started back in the day I did not even realize for some time that all mediums can take the same amount of hits, as well as that damage does not depend on range). I'd rather go with a utility ability like the balance team does now.

Like most aura PzIV aura should be broken into 2 one passive and one timed. It should also scale with with veterancy.


Personally I see little issue with Panther surviving an extra. Invest manpower power, fuel and pop in a CPanzer should helpful even for unit like the Panther.

Remeber also the CP bonus stacks with grens vet 3. A 15% CP bonus would make them ignore over 1/3 or all damage and that would be huge.

yeah, i agree 15% might still be a bit too much and something odd like 13% is kind of questionable. I guess the only way around this would be to give tanks and infantry a flat HP bonus instead of a relative increase (i.e. 160 HP for tanks and 10 HP for infantry).

Personally I see little issue with Panther surviving an extra. Invest manpower power, fuel and pop in a CPanzer should helpful even for unit like the Panther.

Panther survives already an extra shot (even a snare won't kill it), the question is more if it should survive two extra ones or not, which - judging by my gut feeling - could be very problematic since this would boost it's survivability above any heavy in the game.

yeah, i agree 15% might still be a bit too much and something odd like 13% is kind of questionable. I guess the only way around this would be to give tanks and infantry a flat HP bonus instead of a relative increase (i.e. 160 HP for tanks and 10 HP for infantry).

I'd actually love to see the day1 rage of everyone that loses his tank because it survived with 160 and then leaves the CP4 aura, causing instant death. I'd bet money on the code glitching out and that happening.

I'd actually love to see the day1 rage of everyone that loses his tank because it survived with 160 and then leaves the CP4 aura, causing instant death. I'd bet money on the code glitching out and that happening.

haha, yeah very well possible! though tanks surviving with 0 HP after taking deflection damage aren't too rare of a sight right now either. i'd give it at least coin flip odds of working as intended

Instead of adjusting the 10% DR to accomodate the stug, you could simply increase stug health to 600 or 640 like a proper medium. (why its 560, I fail to understand).

Back on topic.. This version of mark target is fail because

1: Pak already has very very good pen and allied tanks short of is2 cant stand pak fire for long so armor debuff makes no sense to me. Panther has 220 pen already and stug also has 180? which is good enough

2: The only usable scenario I see is maybe marking the t70 so that the pak can reliably hit it, but this defeats the point because by then you already have a higher tier and tank out.

Like I actually want to know what scenarios you guys have in mind concerning this tank and this ability.

personally.. id like the cp4 to call in flares like that command panther will. no need mark target no smoke no thing else is needed.