Pershing vs Tiger. Shouldn't Pershing be buffed?

Pershing is much better on the move and against moving targets.
So shooting stationary straight on dont tell the story.

Seriously i dont get what more to buff the pershing? I guess remove the CA buffs and gives it back 960hp. We can test that. But being so mobile and high armor, it is tough for ost to counter such a pershing.

do you all just want another tiger like pershing? more durability but at expense of slow positioning and tracking?

... USF are limited in tank choices and the tanks they do have are lackluster except for the Jackson.

Sherman is one of the most cost efficient medium tanks.

Its basically a Panther with Anti-Infantry but significantly more expensive.

According to posts in this a forum a Panther with AI would be OP.

Now if stats were left the same and the Pershing was given a Blitz like ability and instant smoke Axis would be crying all day about how overpowered it is.

If only Pershing was in commander that had doctrinal smoke anywhere on the map. Wait but it has.

There is a huge double standard going on when it comes to the balance team.

Yes these guys are up to no good they are a part a huge conspiracy for axis to win, I wouldn't be surprised if the mod team is also responsible for the spread the corona virus.

Can we return to reality now?

[...]

I would start by replacing the HVAP skillshot ability with something else that is less micro intensive and improving the veterancy slightly. A self repair ability would be nice as well without having to touch the stats on the unit.

the skillshot is extremely powerful... whenever it doesn't accidentally clip into the terrain. i agree it is frustrating to use, mainly because it's A) hard to aim and extremely telegraphed due to the long wind up (just like that of the IS-2) and B) at times unreliable thanks to the unpredictable collision pattern. but everything else is far from gimmicky. 240 DMG means the difference between 6 and 7 shots to kill a tiger and the 70(!)-range, piercing projectile without any scatter lets you zap targets from far beyond their vision range.

instead of removing the HVAP shot i'd honestly just shave 0.5 to 1 sec off its aim time and see where it goes from there. i doubt that the terrain collision issue can be fixed, but if it's easier to aim at least one part of the RNG coin toss would be eliminated.

Pershing is much better on the move and against moving targets.
So shooting stationary straight on dont tell the story.

Seriously i dont get what more to buff the pershing? I guess remove the CA buffs and gives it back 960hp. We can test that. But being so mobile and high armor, it is tough for ost to counter such a pershing.

do you all just want another tiger like pershing? more durability but at expense of slow positioning and tracking?

1/ then how many time you see M26 actually winning Panther/ tiger while 2 tank dogfight ?
2/ Like everyone said in this thread. Those buff wouldn't change the fate of M26. About OST, buy 2 Stug, 2 pak, or Panther and enjoy.
3/ No, We want M26 be worth for its costs. Give him more MOBILITY and add on repair solution. Or stupidly give back double attack HVAP round.
Also to Vipper, you compere an instane click smoke with a mirco smoke (have delay time) ? Are you serious ?

If only Pershing was in commander that had doctrinal smoke anywhere on the map. Wait but it has.

If only that smoke doesnt have any more than 1s delay with it and only need press 1 hotkey to use, wait but it has.

this is pretty much what i would expect. on average both shouldn't be much apart with respect to AI in a setup like the one you used in your test (no cover, no RA bonuses and wide unit spacing). i haven't tested this yet but here the tiger should even be a tiny bit better than the pershing since it has almost 50% more MG DPS at this range and the target has no RA bonus. things change, however, when you go to more clumped formations and add cover or target size reduction from vet. in those cases the pershing is superior in terms of alpha damage/kills and also sustained DPS/KPS (albeit also not by a landslide).

So... I think I did as you've mentioned (3vet infs + heavy cover + 2 squads behind one sand bag)
https://youtu.be/ZeR8ZjeV_uM

tested 3 times, and Tiger won all... I did test it on 40 range. So this time mg on Tiger did not even fired.

This is all again Comet vs Panther in AI. It feels like all are just biased to the belief Panther/Tiger deals less AI than Comet/Pershing.

I did some tests against AT(range 35), they both takes AT, but Tiger gets it faster.(And sometimes with no dmg taken)

the skillshot is extremely powerful... whenever it doesn't accidentally clip into the terrain. i agree it is frustrating to use, mainly because it's A) hard to aim and extremely telegraphed due to the long wind up (just like that of the IS-2) and B) at times unreliable thanks to the unpredictable collision pattern. but everything else is far from gimmicky. 240 DMG means the difference between 6 and 7 shots to kill a tiger and the 70(!)-range, piercing projectile without any scatter lets you zap targets from far beyond their vision range.

instead of removing the HVAP shot i'd honestly just shave 0.5 to 1 sec off its aim time and see where it goes from there. i doubt that the terrain collision issue can be fixed, but if it's easier to aim at least one part of the RNG coin toss would be eliminated.

the skillshot only good if:
- Return double shot move, because current M26 + new CA wouldn't be OP like old time. Plus prevent accidentally clip the HVAP shot into the terrain.
- Change it to timmed HVAP shot like M36, no addiional DMG. So M26 can actually 1v1 with panther, tiger.

1/ then how many time you see M26 actually winning Panther/ tiger while 2 tank dogfight ?
2/ Like everyone said in this thread. Those buff wouldn't change the fate of M26. About OST, buy 2 Stug, 2 pak, or Panther and enjoy.
3/ No, We want M26 be worth for its costs. Give him more MOBILITY and add on repair solution. Or stupidly give back double attack HVAP round.
Also to Vipper, you compere an instane click smoke with a mirco smoke (have delay time) ? Are you serious ?

pershing + jackson is deadly combo in 2v2.

they are better than ff+comet imo.
or panther + p4
or tiger + p4.
or su85 + is2

we should see how the beta buffs play out. I like that the buffs sticks to the theme of asymmetery instead of making pershing into another tiger.

pershing + jackson is deadly combo in 2v2.

they are better than ff+comet imo.
or panther + p4
or tiger + p4.
or su85 + is2

we should see how the beta buffs play out. I like that the buffs sticks to the theme of asymmetery instead of making pershing into another tiger.

It's expensive than any of combo you listed. Cheaper than Panther + Tiger, but Panther + Tiger is way better.

And don't forget that due to the nature of USF, they need to spend extra 280mp + 35 fuel to get AT.(Since Lieut. is major pick in 1v1). And since 2 AT is kinda meta right now, Tiger + p4 + at is way more superior. Especially with range advantage on Axis. (vet2 Tiger range 50 / AT range 60).

If you want asymmetry, than we can give Pershing a ROF and more AI. Leaving it's AT as it is with 270 armor.
Because from what I've tested, Pershing is far from superior in AI vs Tiger right now.

pershing + jackson is deadly combo in 2v2.

they are better than ff+comet imo.
or panther + p4
or tiger + p4.
or su85 + is2

we should see how the beta buffs play out. I like that the buffs sticks to the theme of asymmetery instead of making pershing into another tiger.

the counterpart to pershing + jackson sould be tiger + panther, but tiger + 2 pak can stand again pershing + jack while being way cheaper.

Talking of mobility, curent pershing have max speed of 6 without any speed vet so it cant ever escape panther (6.6 stock, 7.59 blitz). The upcoming beta offer a 20% speed buff at vet2 bring it up 7.2 but still cant out run a panther. Still, i dont want any vet increase since 20% is already high but it one want to focus in the mobility it can have a Blitz- like skill instead of speed vet so the increase value can be higher or combine with some other effect like decrease RA or better pen (hunt-like).

So... I think I did as you've mentioned (3vet infs + heavy cover + 2 squads behind one sand bag)
https://youtu.be/ZeR8ZjeV_uM

tested 3 times, and Tiger won all... I did test it on 40 range. So this time mg on Tiger did not even fired.

This is all again Comet vs Panther in AI. It feels like all are just biased to the belief Panther/Tiger deals less AI than Comet/Pershing.

I did some tests against AT(range 35), they both takes AT, but Tiger gets it faster.(And sometimes with no dmg taken)

thanks a lot for the actual testing!

i'd say this isn't so much about bias but about expectation. the tests show that both are actually pretty close in terms of AI, and it looks like the tiger is better. however, you'll have to keep in mind that there's also quite a large variance in these setups and 3 repetitions isn't really a huge sample size to draw conclusions from when both tanks are quite close in performance. when i simulate this kind of engagements 2,000 times the difference between the three heavies is barely more than 5-15% in terms of average T2K. if i do the same only 100 times the results are a lot less reproducible and all over the place.
i guess one of the problems is that people expect the pershing to be 50 or more percent better than the tiger, which is simply not the case. the difference is rather small and only really visible in-game if you look at the alpha strike performance (i.e. first shot fired).


EDIT: cover and target size of course only have an effect if the MGs fire at all, as the main gun doesn't really care for accuracy against infantry. out of curiosity, is that footage from the live game or the beta?

thanks a lot for the actual testing!

i'd say this isn't so much about bias but about expectation. the tests show that both are actually pretty close in terms of AI, and it looks like the tiger is better. however, you'll have to keep in mind that there's also quite a large variance in these setups and 3 repetitions isn't really a huge sample size to draw conclusions from when both tanks are quite close in performance. when i simulate this kind of engagements 2,000 times the difference between the three heavies is barely more than 5-15% in terms of average T2K. if i do the same only 100 times the results are a lot less reproducible and all over the place.
i guess one of the problems is that people expect the pershing to be 50 or more percent better than the tiger, which is simply not the case. the difference is rather small and only really visible in-game if you look at the alpha strike performance (i.e. first shot fired).

Yes it is relatively small test size, but it still can represent the fact that Pershing is not superior to the Tiger in terms of AI. Because I've heard so many people saying that in this thread. To justify it's lacking AT & range & armor & health. It would be nice to see test result with much more samples.

Answer to edit: Live mode.

i guess one of the problems is that people expect the pershing to be 50 or more percent better than the tiger, which is simply not the case. the difference is rather small and only really visible in-game if you look at the alpha strike performance (i.e. first shot fired).

Not have to be 50% but with 25% less HP and 10% less armor, i think it is fair to expect more than just 5-10% more performance in certain others aspect.

If only that smoke doesnt have any more than 1s delay with it and only need press 1 hotkey to use, wait but it has.

I guess that, that make the difference between not bothering mentioning and "Axis would be crying all day about how overpowered it is" and "There is a huge double standard going on when it comes to the balance team."

Yes "panzer tactician" is easier to use than "off map smoke barrage" to protect a tank but lest no go crazy about it.

Once more lets try to get back in reality.

I guess that, that make the difference between not bothering mentioning and "Axis would be crying all day about how overpowered it is" and "There is a huge double standard going on when it comes to the balance team."

Yes "panzer tactician" is easier to use than "off map smoke barrage" to protect a tank but lest no go crazy about it.

Once more lets try to get back in reality.

could i mention Panzer tactician can use on every tank, LV while Smoke drop can only one time per use ?
How about give panzer tactician global cooldown to match up with Off map smoke ?
-Compare 1 click ability to mirco ability because there are all smoke drop is stupid.

Vipper, next time you better use Ju-87 smoke drop on OKW tiger to compare with USF smoke drop.
dont double standard, please.

+ Repair time LMAO, sad RE noise

Just some advice here, for anyone, since it will help out a ton in this regard: you can stick your (new) RET in a Sherman or Jackson and they will be vet 3 within a couple of shots. It's a bit of a chore but you'll get the vet 2 and 3 repair bonuses in no time and that will significantly reduce the repair times on your Pershing.