4v4 balance improvement

I think the main issue with 4v4 right now is how easy it is to get value with Panthers. Other than that, my suggestion to anyone who wants to win more as Allies is to pick an arty counter if there is no arty counter. Stuff like IL-2 bombing run and ToT (also don't play Brits). Always have someone with arty counter on the team before you pick whatever commander you want to play.

Both Axis factions get Panthers and they can easily trade and win fights with a Panther because of its high hp and high frontal armour. It leads to a snowball effect late game where Panthers stay alive (keeping value) while removing value from the enemy team. Panther wins most 1v1 as it should for its cost and the range advantage it has over most tanks. Not to mention Blitz at vet 1 and extra survival at vet 2. Now, this last part is just me nitpicking but the Panther's high frontal armour combined with the low pen of Allied tank snares AND combined with the fact that tank snare deflection will not 'kill' a Panther just makes the Panther such a great unit. You don't see faust failing to pen a low hp Allied tank and failing to kill it. Seriously, check out tightropes video on the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMNeWwgvRrI

There's really not a way to fix this without nerfing Panthers. I don't think nerfing Panthers is the right solution because Axis depends on the Panther to be competitive. Giving Allies easier access to better armour might be a better start instead of locking it behind a commander pick that is either better armour or arty counter. Doing this however will most likely shake up the balance of the game in 1v1s which the balance team would want to avoid. Not to mention a complete Commander rework for tanks that are added. I definitely think fixing the deflection failing to kill bug should be fixed though as the bug has led to so many Panthers surviving when they should have not survived. The cumulative total is enough to summon a Panther God.

Protos is right about the blob part too. Axis get 2 stock blob hard counters, Stuka and Werfer while only Soviets have the only stock blob hard counter, Katy. Blobs are tough to counter without knowing the right tools and having the right tools available.

Also I think, if there is ever a coh3, it would do well with a separate balance for team games and 1v1. You can find my coh3 wishlist here: https://www.coh2.org/topic/107980/my-coh3-dow4-wishlist/page/1#post_id857982 Feel free to add to it!

Or maybe you make it so OKW doesn't benefit from cache's that Ostheer lays down. Since OKW was designed to not have cache's available to them, salvage being the replacement mechanic.

Id personally just remove caches period. Go push if you want more resources. Also either remove or adjust the power of dedicated respurce points so holding both fuel isnt game ending.

I doubt Relic would approve such a change.

Id personally just remove caches period. Go push if you want more resources. Also either remove or adjust the power of dedicated respurce points so holding both fuel isnt game ending.

I doubt Relic would approve such a change.

Just remove fuel points on 4v4 maps

Id personally just remove caches period. Go push if you want more resources. Also either remove or adjust the power of dedicated respurce points so holding both fuel isnt game ending.

I doubt Relic would approve such a change.

Just remove fuel points on 4v4 maps

These are interesting points of discussion. They highlight that, in general, Axis will win because they are better able to keep, save, and spend resources, whereas Allies cannot. Axis can do this because in team games their units are MUCH more effective at what they do.

I think the main issue with 4v4 right now is how easy it is to get value with Panthers. Other than that, my suggestion to anyone who wants to win more as Allies is to pick an arty counter if there is no arty counter. Stuff like IL-2 bombing run and ToT (also don't play Brits). Always have someone with arty counter on the team before you pick whatever commander you want to play.

Both Axis factions get Panthers and they can easily trade and win fights with a Panther because of its high hp and high frontal armour. It leads to a snowball effect late game where Panthers stay alive (keeping value) while removing value from the enemy team. Panther wins most 1v1 as it should for its cost and the range advantage it has over most tanks. Not to mention Blitz at vet 1 and extra survival at vet 2. Now, this last part is just me nitpicking but the Panther's high frontal armour combined with the low pen of Allied tank snares AND combined with the fact that tank snare deflection will not 'kill' a Panther just makes the Panther such a great unit. You don't see faust failing to pen a low hp Allied tank and failing to kill it. Seriously, check out tightropes video on the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMNeWwgvRrI

There's really not a way to fix this without nerfing Panthers. I don't think nerfing Panthers is the right solution because Axis depends on the Panther to be competitive. Giving Allies easier access to better armour might be a better start instead of locking it behind a commander pick that is either better armour or arty counter. Doing this however will most likely shake up the balance of the game in 1v1s which the balance team would want to avoid. Not to mention a complete Commander rework for tanks that are added. I definitely think fixing the deflection failing to kill bug should be fixed though as the bug has led to so many Panthers surviving when they should have not survived. The cumulative total is enough to summon a Panther God.

Protos is right about the blob part too. Axis get 2 stock blob hard counters, Stuka and Werfer while only Soviets have the only stock blob hard counter, Katy. Blobs are tough to counter without knowing the right tools and having the right tools available.

Also I think, if there is ever a coh3, it would do well with a separate balance for team games and 1v1. You can find my coh3 wishlist here: https://www.coh2.org/topic/107980/my-coh3-dow4-wishlist/page/1#post_id857982 Feel free to add to it!

This may be one of the single most important aspects right now in regards to balance, especially in team games were the likelihood of this happening obviously increases with more tanks and more snares on the field. Snares need to be able to never bounce or else allies will always be at a disadvantage with one of the most core mechanics of the game.

I can't thank tightrope enough for this video and for you for posting it here. Please balance team, please fix

Just remove fuel points on 4v4 maps

Just remove 4v4 maps. You queue for 4v4. Insta matchup, random function called. If your team gets an even number, you win, odd, you lose. If both get even numbers, roll again (same for odd).
Problem solved. No more waiting in queue to find the match, no more arty fests, no more stress.

Just remove 4v4 maps. You queue for 4v4. Insta matchup, random function called. If your team gets an even number, you win, odd, you lose. If both get even numbers, roll again (same for odd).
Problem solved. No more waiting in queue to find the match, no more arty fests, no more stress.

Just queue for 3v3 RT if you hate 4v4 RT that much. 4v4 RT is utterly cancerous. 4v4 fuel points are madness inducing at times but we'll just have to stick with them. Relic veto mechanical changes iirc.

These are interesting points of discussion. They highlight that, in general, Axis will win because they are better able to keep, save, and spend resources, whereas Allies cannot. Axis can do this because in team games their units are MUCH more effective at what they do.

It's a good thing Allies get extremely cost effective tank destroyers then. And objectively better infantry for early-to-mid game (unless cons and even then there's SVT cons). And SPGs for dealing with campers or HQ trucks parked one inch outside the base sector on some maps.

...

It's a good thing Allies get extremely cost effective tank destroyers then. And objectively better infantry for early-to-mid game (unless cons and even then there's SVT cons). And SPGs for dealing with campers or HQ trucks parked one inch outside the base sector on some maps.

The point is obviously even with those things balance is still heavily skewed. Allies simply can't overcome the efficiency in team games. Cost effective shermans and jacksons are great until theyre getting two shot by the ele or pak43 on the field and your infantry is fantastic until your base sector is getting hammered by a LeFH.

The point is obviously even with those things balance is still heavily skewed. Allies simply can't overcome the efficiency in team games. Cost effective shermans and jacksons are great until theyre getting two shot by the ele or pak43 on the field and your infantry is fantastic until your base sector is getting hammered by a LeFH.

I fail to understand how Axis can be bombarding your base sector with vet 0 LeFHs and not be flattened by SPGs. With CB gone are they somehow still oppressive vs your arty? Or is this a team bad commander pick situation?

You mean 3-shot by Elefant, Ele does 300 dmg per shot vs the 640 hp target. Spotting scopes are being removed next patch from Ele so it's really the infamous 65+ sight range 222 that you want dead here. If they don't have that then they're screwed.

How is a PaK 43 shooting your TDs? It rolled up to you on treads? Surprise shot reveal and then avoided for the rest of the game/flattened by Major recon + arty?

This early-to-mid game advantage of USF of course means they suffer in the late game, but their inf are by no means bad even then. They scale very well on vet. Sure they aren't beating vet III LMG Obers for cost but that's working as intended. Going toe-to-toe with pzgrens.

I fail to understand how Axis can be bombarding your base sector with vet 0 LeFHs and not be flattened by SPGs. With CB gone are they somehow still oppressive vs your arty? Or is this a team bad commander pick situation?

You mean 3-shot by Elefant, Ele does 300 dmg per shot vs the 640 hp target. Spotting scopes are being removed next patch from Ele so it's really the infamous 65+ sight range 222 that you want dead here. If they don't have that then they're screwed.

How is a PaK 43 shooting your TDs? It rolled up to you on treads? Surprise shot reveal and then avoided for the rest of the game/flattened by Major recon + arty?

This early-to-mid game advantage of USF of course means they suffer in the late game, but their inf are by no means bad even then. They scale very well on vet. Sure they aren't beating vet III LMG Obers for cost but that's working as intended. Going toe-to-toe with pzgrens.

There are MUCH more LEFH's than SPG's in 4v4. I've had games where I can't keep up with multiple players with them. SPG's as a purchase are also much more punishing in 4v4 for Allies than building an LEFH is for Axis. I fail to understand how someone posting in a 4v4 balance thread has not experienced this. If you genuinely believe SPG's the counter to the LEFH, then those doctrines need to be made as readily available as they are for Axis. Or not? As USF only has one doc for that. Are you suggesting 4v4 USF players only play Infantry (not a bad decision, not fun) so they can not get flattened by LEFH?

The early-midgame advantage of USF is almost nonexistant in 4v4. Do you not know this? It would take a team on voip to capitalise on that in 4v4 reliably (yes it does happen, I know, I have replays too) , are you suggesting that 4v4 is balanced around organized teams with voip rather than pug's/random public player?

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Someone didn't take the 2 commanders with SPGs, or its a full Soviet team. I can dream of a day when Infantry and Ro. A aren't spammed. Stick Urban Assault on that pile.

The design team stopped the "early mid" stuff a while back in the pursuit of actual game design.

The problem with Obers vs USF is the removal of efficient, effective blob control. The Scott and Pack Howi nerfs mean Obers no longer consistently die, so their 40 mp cost is irrelevant. Calliope spam and HE Shermans are the only shock blob control, MGs die to elite inf blobs before suppress.

Late game rifles just get slapped by rocket arty, which has no counterplay on super laney maps outside dodging for inf and prayer for team weapons.

We really need the stats for 4v4 win rates by map to see if some outliers need reworking/removal.

There are MUCH more LEFH's than SPG's in 4v4. I've had games where I can't keep up with multiple players with them. SPG's as a purchase are also much more punishing in 4v4 for Allies than building an LEFH is for Axis. I fail to understand how someone posting in a 4v4 balance thread has not experienced this. If you genuinely believe SPG's the counter to the LEFH, then those doctrines need to be made as readily available as they are for Axis. Or not? As USF only has one doc for that. Are you suggesting 4v4 USF players only play Infantry (not a bad decision, not fun) so they can not get flattened by LEFH?

The early-midgame advantage of USF is almost nonexistant in 4v4. Do you not know this? It would take a team on voip to capitalise on that in 4v4 reliably (yes it does happen, I know, I have replays too) , are you suggesting that 4v4 is balanced around organized teams with voip rather than pug's/random public player?

How is an SPG more punishing? It's a 2 hit to kill mobile heavy arty piece vs a fixed emplacement. Fuel? Your get that survivability back in cost easy.

Also LEFH counters: IL-2 bombing run. USF Major recon + arty strike. Most arty call-ins, from 180mm to stuff like the concentrated fire with the big boom.

SPGs yes (you try to blow one up even with 2 LEFHs in FoW). They can focus fire down your emplacements at a time of their choosing, from a direction of their choosing. Done this dance on Hamburg well enough to know this all too well.

If you are having issues vs LEFHs in 4v4 I don't know what to say. It's not like they got survivability buffs. They died easy in the past outside of 4 digit MMRs. Try that stuff against ppl in the top 100 and you'll drown in bombs. Coordinated Axis AT with LEFH strategy? Okay that will be a problem but that's premades for you.

Oh and my personal favourite from ppl in the past - just dive it lulz!
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Run into AT in 3v3+ enough to basically assume it's a high possibility.


Yes, I can see how my LEFHs were oppressive during this experiment where I spammed them out in the lategame. Very oppressive. I totally wasn't having guns parked outside the base sector being blown to hell on Red Ball.

Someone didn't take the 2 commanders with SPGs, or its a full Soviet team. I can dream of a day when Infantry and Ro. A aren't spammed. Stick Urban Assault on that pile.

The design team stopped the "early mid" stuff a while back in the pursuit of actual game design.

The problem with Obers vs USF is the removal of efficient, effective blob control. The Scott and Pack Howi nerfs mean Obers no longer consistently die, so their 40 mp cost is irrelevant. Calliope spam and HE Shermans are the only shock blob control, MGs die to elite inf blobs before suppress.

Late game rifles just get slapped by rocket arty, which has no counterplay on super laney maps outside dodging for inf and prayer for team weapons.

We really need the stats for 4v4 win rates by map to see if some outliers need reworking/removal.

Early-mid stuff is still in there - By all means try to fight infantry sections/riflemen with volks without camping behind sandbags. You will get rolled by any decent player. Penals are penals.

Have you considered that you should be having issues trying to kill T4 elite anti-infantry infantry with T0 infantry, even with weapon upgrades? Their price tag, reinforcement cost and timing reflect this lethality. In any case the issues don't really show up until they get to vet II+ because you can mob them rather easily until then. After that point you drop models like flies and bleed heavier than they do.

The problem with Obers vs USF is the removal of efficient, effective blob control. The Scott and Pack Howi nerfs mean Obers no longer consistently die, so their 40 mp cost is irrelevant. Calliope spam and HE Shermans are the only shock blob control, MGs die to elite inf blobs before suppress.

You haven't seen the devils work for 4v4 USF that is .50 cal. spam.

You don't see faust failing to pen a low hp Allied tank and failing to kill it. Seriously, check out tightropes video on the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMNeWwgvRrI

Fausts just fail to materialize instead. You pay for it, it goes on cooldown, and nothing happens. Does that count?

Fausts just fail to materialize instead. You pay for it, it goes on cooldown, and nothing happens. Does that count?

I'm pretty sure it doesn't since it's a known bug that has been "fixed" but then not really.
One is a balance problem, other is a technical one. Hell, if you want BS, my faust bugged out 2 times today (albeit hasn't done that in a while so I guess..) in one game. On <100 hp tanks

How is an SPG more punishing? It's a 2 hit to kill mobile heavy arty piece vs a fixed emplacement. Fuel? Your get that survivability back in cost easy.

Also LEFH counters: IL-2 bombing run. USF Major recon + arty strike. Most arty call-ins, from 180mm to stuff like the concentrated fire with the big boom.

SPGs yes (you try to blow one up even with 2 LEFHs in FoW). They can focus fire down your emplacements at a time of their choosing, from a direction of their choosing. Done this dance on Hamburg well enough to know this all too well.

If I recall, the Lefh costs 400MP and 40-60 fuel correct? Comes in at 8 CP? So if it's against USF one of them is FORCED, not encouraged but forced to go a doctrine to deal with it? I feel like that's the biggest issue with USF/Brits in that since they don't have complete tools, having to go commanders to deal with casual things locks them out of options.

Furthermore If you used little fuel to force out a big purchase such as the priest, mission accomplished time to get tanks out faster then your opponent. Or as you say spend 250 USF munitions to counter it (Guess USF doesn't need bars or AT rounds). I'd like to see a 4v4 player actually buy some anti air to see if it could snipe the majors planes and others before revealing the Lefh.

I don't think this is a Lefh problem, I just think it's more of a damning decision to deprive Two allied factions of tools to deal with simple things.

I'm pretty sure it doesn't since it's a known bug that has been "fixed" but then not really.
One is a balance problem, other is a technical one. Hell, if you want BS, my faust bugged out 2 times today (albeit hasn't done that in a while so I guess..) in one game. On <100 hp tanks

Yeah, they're technically different. I was just saying the BS affects both parties. T70 chasing down a squad? I'll just faust it... Oh. Nope. Sturms down.

If I recall, the Lefh costs 400MP and 40-60 fuel correct? Comes in at 8 CP? So if it's against USF one of them is FORCED, not encouraged but forced to go a doctrine to deal with it? I feel like that's the biggest issue with USF/Brits in that since they don't have complete tools, having to go commanders to deal with casual things locks them out of options.

Furthermore If you used little fuel to force out a big purchase such as the priest, mission accomplished time to get tanks out faster then your opponent. Or as you say spend 250 USF munitions to counter it (Guess USF doesn't need bars or AT rounds). I'd like to see a 4v4 player actually buy some anti air to see if it could snipe the majors planes and others before revealing the Lefh.

I don't think this is a Lefh problem, I just think it's more of a damning decision to deprive Two allied factions of tools to deal with simple things.

What are wehr/okw supposed to do non doc?

What are wehr/okw supposed to do non doc?

to deal with SPGs?

The normal answer to mobile Arty spam. Flank, dive, or cheese.