So just reading through the notes for the balance on commanders and I saw this absolute gem of a quote
'Rear Echelon Rifle Grenades
The Rifle Grenade launcher is being adjusted to force user input from the player rather than being an auto-fire weapon that the opponent must constantly dodge.
Auto-fire changed to a targeted ability with no munitions cost. 15 second recharge.
No longer takes a weapon slot'
What if this is how ALL handheld AT is used?? This would literally change little to nothing in 1 v 1 Pro tournament games, and fix everything wrong with Allied and Axis A blob AT late game? The guy with 4 Penzer grens with 8 Shrek's now has to individually fire each one! whats more fair than that trade off?
Getting to the original post however, not sure the rear echelon rifle grenade (compared to mr brain dead 4v4 4 man shrek blob) needed this, but the idea is simply amazing!
Balance wise Brits have to do this anyway with PIATS...??? just saying!
The balance to all game modes we all needed?!
6 Apr 2021, 14:43 PM
#1
Posts: 20
6 Apr 2021, 14:53 PM
#2
Posts: 1594
So just reading through the notes for the balance on commanders and I saw this absolute gem of a quote
'Rear Echelon Rifle Grenades
The Rifle Grenade launcher is being adjusted to force user input from the player rather than being an auto-fire weapon that the opponent must constantly dodge.
Auto-fire changed to a targeted ability with no munitions cost. 15 second recharge.
No longer takes a weapon slot'
What if this is how ALL handheld AT is used?? This would literally change little to nothing in 1 v 1 Pro tournament games, and fix everything wrong with Allied and Axis A blob AT late game? The guy with 4 Penzer grens with 8 Shrek's now has to individually fire each one! whats more fair than that trade off?
Getting to the original post however, not sure the rear echelon rifle grenade (compared to mr brain dead 4v4 4 man shrek blob) needed this, but the idea is simply amazing!
The RE grenade isnt AT, and it was an issue before. It was a no-micro ability that forced your opponent to constantly micro his infantry, due to the grenade being accurate, and doing a significant amount of damage. It being an active ability was a good change, though it is still free.
Shreck/zook blobs really aren't the same sort of thing as the RE grenadier.
Balance wise Brits have to do this anyway with PIATS...??? just saying!
No they don't, PIATs are just as effective as any other handheld AT is during autofire now. That was an old piece of design that hasn't been the case for quite a long time now.
6 Apr 2021, 14:58 PM
#3
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Balance wise Brits have to do this anyway with PIATS...??? just saying!
Its already couple of years since they don't.
What is up with all the horrible ideas recently again?
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
6 Apr 2021, 15:09 PM
#4
Posts: 20
The RE grenade isnt AT, and it was an issue before. It was a no-micro ability that forced your opponent to constantly micro his infantry, due to the grenade being accurate, and doing a significant amount of damage. It being an active ability was a good change, though it is still free.
Shreck/zook blobs really aren't the same sort of thing as the RE grenadier.
No they don't, PIATs are just as effective as any other handheld AT is during autofire now. That was an old piece of design that hasn't been the case for quite a long time now.
Thanks for replying!
I didn't say that the two were related. I know what a rear echelon grenade is. I'm saying the idea of the aimed ability adds skill to the game where a brainless act of moving 4 units of 8 shreks that 'auto one volly' a tank of the field, with no micro, shouldn't be rewarded. Wasn't this the whole reason Mortar auto fire range was nerfed?
You could say you could do this for every weapon system in the game could go 'fire mode' or ability, but nothings more potent than a hand held AT blob capable to insta-killing a 150+ fuel investment?
You know deep down i'm right.
6 Apr 2021, 15:22 PM
#5
Posts: 1594
I didn't say that the two were related. I know what a rear echelon grenade is. I'm saying the idea of the aimed ability adds skill to the game where a brainless act of moving 4 units of 8 shreks that 'auto one volly' a tank of the field, with no micro, shouldn't be rewarded.
If your opponent has a blob of four shrecked Pgrens then I'm afraid you have done something wrong. You should have been able to roll him flat with your own infantry, MGs turn them into a non-factor, and rocket artillery obliterates such things as well. That's a ton of MP and Muni he's somehow managed to save up.
They're already being microed by being moved around the battlefield, the difference is that in RE Nade's case: You park them behind green cover and never have to touch them again.
Zooks/piats/shrecks are strong weapons, but "Shreckblobs" are hardly a balance issue.
Wasn't this the whole reason Mortar auto fire range was nerfed?
Mortars were a 0 micro unit that you parked behind your lines and proceeded to have them kill infantry for free, Zooks/Shrecks need to be well within range of enemy vehicles to actually combat them, and actually need to be microed to avoid opposing weaponry. The only people being defeated by A-move Shreck/Zook blobs are those who need to improve other aspects of their gameplay (Or they need to find teammates for their 4v4 games)
You know deep down i'm right.
I do not agree.
6 Apr 2021, 15:32 PM
#6
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Thanks for replying!
I didn't say that the two were related. I know what a rear echelon grenade is. I'm saying the idea of the aimed ability adds skill to the game where a brainless act of moving 4 units of 8 shreks that 'auto one volly' a tank of the field, with no micro, shouldn't be rewarded. Wasn't this the whole reason Mortar auto fire range was nerfed?
You could say you could do this for every weapon system in the game could go 'fire mode' or ability, but nothings more potent than a hand held AT blob capable to insta-killing a 150+ fuel investment?
You know deep down i'm right.
Charging a tank into AT blob and losing it is L2P problem, not balance one.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
6 Apr 2021, 15:57 PM
#7
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
WutFace
6 Apr 2021, 17:46 PM
#8
Posts: 20
wow not going to lie, wast expecting this responce lol.
Why do people get pidgeonholed into 'I know this guy has a l2p issue so will pretend I know exactly why hes come to the forum' blah blahh.
Those RE nades must really be hurting those giving 'l2p' help to me XD
Ill go pretend adding more skill into this game is a bad idea :/
Meanwhile, Firefly...OK!
Here are some facts;
In 4 v 4 SOME PEOPLE blob!
In 4 v 4, using a shrek blob is a viable strat with smoke cover through MG's.
Apparently: RE nades > Handheld AT one shotting tanks...
Why do people get pidgeonholed into 'I know this guy has a l2p issue so will pretend I know exactly why hes come to the forum' blah blahh.
Those RE nades must really be hurting those giving 'l2p' help to me XD
Ill go pretend adding more skill into this game is a bad idea :/
Meanwhile, Firefly...OK!
Here are some facts;
In 4 v 4 SOME PEOPLE blob!
In 4 v 4, using a shrek blob is a viable strat with smoke cover through MG's.
Apparently: RE nades > Handheld AT one shotting tanks...
6 Apr 2021, 17:50 PM
#9
Posts: 356
When I mocked the counterbarrage people by suggesting we remove even more automatic features like infantry auto-firing and squad move orders I was just joking...
6 Apr 2021, 17:50 PM
#10
Posts: 20
If your opponent has a blob of four shrecked Pgrens then I'm afraid you have done something wrong. You should have been able to roll him flat with your own infantry, MGs turn them into a non-factor, and rocket artillery obliterates such things as well. That's a ton of MP and Muni he's somehow managed to save up.
They're already being microed by being moved around the battlefield, the difference is that in RE Nade's case: You park them behind green cover and never have to touch them again.
Zooks/piats/shrecks are strong weapons, but "Shreckblobs" are hardly a balance issue.
Mortars were a 0 micro unit that you parked behind your lines and proceeded to have them kill infantry for free, Zooks/Shrecks need to be well within range of enemy vehicles to actually combat them, and actually need to be microed to avoid opposing weaponry. The only people being defeated by A-move Shreck/Zook blobs are those who need to improve other aspects of their gameplay (Or they need to find teammates for their 4v4 games)
I do not agree.
Parking a RE with his apparent nuke nade, you are all so scared of, is the same as a gren unit with double shreks...
6 Apr 2021, 18:18 PM
#11
Posts: 1594
Parking a RE with his apparent nuke nade, you are all so scared of, is the same as a gren unit with double shreks...
Given that the RE nade comes much sooner, and a single RE with autofire grenades forces your opponent to constantly micro an engagement it is in, it isnt really the same as "Double shrecked Grens", who come later in the game, and have a totally different role/use-case.
It isnt because it's a "nuke nade", its that it's a large amount of burst damage at regular intervals
There's a reason infantry grenades are all active abilities, and aren't Autofired. Your weird comparison of AT tube rockets isnt relevant. Lets' say REs kept their Autofire grenade, and Grenadiers' rifle grenade became Autofired as well. Would you be happy then?
You're thinking of Pgrens, incidentally. Grens don't have Shrecks.
6 Apr 2021, 18:33 PM
#12
Posts: 20
Given that the RE nade comes much sooner, and a single RE with autofire grenades forces your opponent to constantly micro an engagement it is in, it isnt really the same as "Double shrecked Grens", who come later in the game, and have a totally different role/use-case.
It isnt because it's a "nuke nade", its that it's a large amount of burst damage at regular intervals
There's a reason infantry grenades are all active abilities, and aren't Autofired. Your weird comparison of AT tube rockets isnt relevant. Lets' say REs kept their Autofire grenade, and Grenadiers' rifle grenade became Autofired as well. Would you be happy then?
You're thinking of Pgrens, incidentally. Grens don't have Shrecks.
Thats no different to the shock troop 'engineerlol' unit OKW start with? that's a starting unit too. thats another gripe..
I would be happy with the PIONEER (not gren as thats not the weak starting eng unit) unit having a single commander picked ability that gives them a nuke nade yes. Can we have a panther too then?
what is the actual issue with my original isea btw without bringing up RE nuke nades? Why are handheld AT weapons having a skill shot a bad idea? For firefly its ok because of the burst damage. Same with handheld rockets, not rifles.
6 Apr 2021, 18:41 PM
#13
Posts: 1594
Thats no different to the shock troop 'engineerlol' unit OKW start with? that's a starting unit too. thats another gripe..
What do Sturmpioneers have to do with a non-microed autofire grenade? You don't seem to grasp the issue.
I would be happy with the PIONEER (not gren as thats not the weak starting eng unit) unit having a single commander picked ability that gives them a nuke nade yes. Can we have a panther too then?
You wouldn't be happy with that, I guarantee it, though I don't see any reason it would need to be Pioneers with the ability, nor for it to be doctrinal. Grenadiers already have a rifle grenade, you don't think there's an issue with REs having theirs be autofired, why would there be an issue with Grens' being autofired?
The Panther isnt relevant in this discussion, please stop deflecting into completely unrelated topics. I'm not sure why you'd be all that concerned about having the Panther anyway, when you already have the Jackson.
what is the actual issue with my original isea btw without bringing up RE nuke nades? Why are handheld AT weapons having a skill shot a bad idea? For firefly its ok because of the burst damage. Same with handheld rockets, not rifles.
Because handheld AT is not overpowered, and there's no need to nerf it like that. The only people getting rolled over by Shreckblobs are not very good at the game, that's an L2P issue, not a balance one.
6 Apr 2021, 18:45 PM
#14
Posts: 356
what is the actual issue with my original isea btw without bringing up RE nuke nades?
Because it's inconsistent with the game design. RE grenades, a recently added ability, are already borderline inconsistent hence the compromise by making this change.
The game is designed from the ground up around infantry AT functioning the way it does, and changing it would deeply affect gameplay solely because you can't be bothered to learn how to fight infantry blobs.
6 Apr 2021, 18:49 PM
#15
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Because it's inconsistent with the game design. RE grenades, a recently added ability, are already borderline inconsistent hence the compromise by making this change.
Inconsistent compared to what?
Which other weapon upgrade requires you to manually shoot it?
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
6 Apr 2021, 18:53 PM
#16
Posts: 1594
Inconsistent compared to what?
Which other weapon upgrade requires you to manually shoot it?
Which other weapon upgrade allows you to autofire grenades?
6 Apr 2021, 19:37 PM
#17
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
The change is fine, what it needs to be tested is if it's cost effective/good combat wise.
Someone does remember if RET with the upgrade in LIVE have their weapon replaced or not?
Someone does remember if RET with the upgrade in LIVE have their weapon replaced or not?
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
6 Apr 2021, 19:38 PM
#18
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
The change is fine, what it needs to be tested is if it's cost effective/good combat wise.
Someone does remember if RET with the upgrade in LIVE have their weapon replaced or not?
It does replace weapon on live.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
6 Apr 2021, 19:44 PM
#19
Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2
It does replace weapon on live.
If that's the case, then it ends up been a general buff as you now have what, 15s of RET carbine shooting?
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.
Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.
6 Apr 2021, 20:33 PM
#20
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
If that's the case, then it ends up been a general buff as you now have what, 15s of RET carbine shooting?
It does shoot much faster then once every 15 sec on live tho.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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