Commander Update Beta 2021 - Ostheer Feedback

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I still think vsl is even worse than g43 grens, trading firepower for more mp bleed. Staying power really doesn't make sense as losing a model is almost the same as 4 man grens. This staying power is mostly mainly used snaring stuff which sprint can do better. VSL also cost more than lmg, need extra manpower to reinforce. Meanwhile g43 commanders like JLI can have sprint and will be more useful. LMG still better most of the time.

Not most, all the time. Model 24 is a nice upgrade, having the benefit of ambush as option in a single 60 munition upgrade would make it worth taking over MG42 upgrade probably, by making Jäger infantry packed with abilities and utilities over mg42 dps

I do agree that VSL is bad. I think that lowering their reinforce cost to 24 (the reinforcement cost of a 240 mp 5 men squad) would make it a competitive option

I do agree with VSL is worst choice, yet disagree with g43. They are pretty descent weapon if you ask me. But the play style just don't fit with WM.

Most of the time WM needs to counter enemy attack & push little by little with pak + mg. LMG gren helps in long range to whomever trying to get close. While g43 is more of a blob & cut enemy retreating path. Making gren more aggressive. But not really fit into the play.

However, what you can do is spam g43 gren & go for the blob...
Which is kinda fun for one or two games. But why whould one play WM if that's how they are gonna play it. And 4 man is very risky squad to get aggressive after all.

I do agree with VSL is worst choice, yet disagree with g43. They are pretty descent weapon if you ask me. But the play style just don't fit with WM.

Most of the time WM needs to counter enemy attack & push little by little with pak + mg. LMG gren helps in long range to whomever trying to get close. While g43 is more of a blob & cut enemy retreating path. Making gren more aggressive. But not really fit into the play.

However, what you can do is spam g43 gren & go for the blob...
Which is kinda fun for one or two games. But why whould one play WM if that's how they are gonna play it. And 4 man is very risky squad to get aggressive after all.

That's exactly the point of Ambush, to give it a viable playstyle and a niche role where G43 Grens can be used defensively in an effective way

That's exactly the point of Ambush, to give it a viable playstyle and a niche role where G43 Grens can be used defensively in an effective way

OTOH, I do not like the idea of giving ambush to the mainline infantry. Or at least make it cost extra munition. 60 munition for ambush + g43 is simply too much.

OTOH, I do not like the idea of giving ambush to the mainline infantry. Or at least make it cost extra munition. 60 munition for ambush + g43 is simply too much.

The ability already exists

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OTOH, I do not like the idea of giving ambush to the mainline infantry. Or at least make it cost extra munition. 60 munition for ambush + g43 is simply too much.

It already costs 65 munitions in total to upgrade a squad with both. And in G43s current state, people only take the ambush camouflage + LMG42 on grens.

Power creep is real and literally gives no other choice but increase the raw power of Gren G43s to make it viable on them compared to LMG42.

The ability already exists

I thought it was only possible to lmg gren only was it not?

I thought it was only possible to lmg gren only was it not?

Its separate additional upgrade.

Its separate additional upgrade.

Didn't see there was a commander who has both g43 package + ambush camouflage.

Didn't see there was a commander who has both g43 package + ambush camouflage.

Jeager infantry. Or at least it used to have it. Haven't really used this one much so I have no idea how it looks now outside of having jeager command squad.

It already costs 65 munitions in total to upgrade a squad with both. And in G43s current state, people only take the ambush camouflage + LMG42 on grens.

Power creep is real and literally gives no other choice but increase the raw power of Gren G43s to make it viable on them compared to LMG42.

Grens with G43s are viable. It was shown in ongoing 1v1 tournament.

Grens with G43s are viable. It was shown in ongoing 1v1 tournament.

Only because the meta is Soviet conscripts and zis barrages

Wishlist for future Ostheer changes:

Festung Support: This commander is just so weird with the changes. Especially the only thing unique about it is the forward resupply station but then Joint Operations has it also and comes with a LeFh. Everything else in the commander either is average in it's effect or comes with much better commanders. Command Panzer and Mortar Halftrack can both be found in much stronger commanders imo (Spearhead has a tiger and there are a lot of command panzer to choose from). Relief Infantry and Sector Artillery I think can be agreed that they aren't useless but they don't make a commander standout that much.
IMO this commander needs some retuning to have something that really makes it stand out. Some ideas are like maybe making it the only commander to have the resupply station? Joint Operations having it imo makes it almost impossible to pick any other commander with it because they also have the LeFh on top of it. If not that I think it needs to have something changed within it so it stands out more.

Joint Operations: To add on to what was mentioned above I think this commander is actually gonna suffer from having so many buildable. It lost an artillery off map in favor of another buildable when it already has 2. I think 2 should be picked and the other swapped for something else to keep this from being overloaded.

Close Air Support: This commander I still think is suffering from not really getting any changes. It's not often picked and I think could really benefit from just something. The Luftwaffe Field Officer in place of the AI strafe would pretty much directly upgrade the doctrine by giving it an extra recon on top of the AI strafe. I would say even though it would then be shared with Luftwaffe Supply that these two commanders would still be unique from each other especially after the changes to the latter.

Jaeger Armor Doctrine: This commander I still think needs more nerfs to it as the changes are a good step but not that much has really changed for this commander. The nerf to spotting scopes was warranted but it's kinda been compensated with the addition of Mobile Observation Post to the AT mine. I think the AT strafe should be removed from the commander. An idea could be to replace that with Breakthrough Equipment. Blowing up cover fits the theme of helping spot for the Elefant but it would probably still be weaker than the AT strafe. Or just replace with something even weaker but in general this commander is way to overpicked in team games and needs a substantial change.

Ostruppen as a unit should also probably not get nearly as many buffs as they do currently. The unit is already very strong and we've seen them be very powerful in high level tournaments.

Is it OK for bunker with both medic and command post upgrades to have 80 sight range?

Wow, that's an interesting oversight. Might make my pak43 near a double upgraded bunker.

Wishlist for future Ostheer changes:
Jaeger Armor Doctrine: This commander I still think needs more nerfs to it as the changes are a good step but not that much has really changed for this commander. The nerf to spotting scopes was warranted but it's kinda been compensated with the addition of Mobile Observation Post to the AT mine. I think the AT strafe should be removed from the commander. An idea could be to replace that with Breakthrough Equipment. Blowing up cover fits the theme of helping spot for the Elefant but it would probably still be weaker than the AT strafe. Or just replace with something even weaker but in general this commander is way to overpicked in team games and needs a substantial change.

I say replace AT strafe with heat round like ability for p4's and Panthers. For muni cost more pen more damage.
And this would also fit Jaeger Armor(hunter tank) better.

Wishlist for future Ostheer changes:

Festung Support: This commander is just so weird with the changes. Especially the only thing unique about it is the forward resupply station but then Joint Operations has it also and comes with a LeFh. Everything else in the commander either is average in it's effect or comes with much better commanders. Command Panzer and Mortar Halftrack can both be found in much stronger commanders imo (Spearhead has a tiger and there are a lot of command panzer to choose from). Relief Infantry and Sector Artillery I think can be agreed that they aren't useless but they don't make a commander standout that much.
IMO this commander needs some retuning to have something that really makes it stand out. Some ideas are like maybe making it the only commander to have the resupply station? Joint Operations having it imo makes it almost impossible to pick any other commander with it because they also have the LeFh on top of it. If not that I think it needs to have something changed within it so it stands out more.

Joint Operations: To add on to what was mentioned above I think this commander is actually gonna suffer from having so many buildable. It lost an artillery off map in favor of another buildable when it already has 2. I think 2 should be picked and the other swapped for something else to keep this from being overloaded.

Close Air Support: This commander I still think is suffering from not really getting any changes. It's not often picked and I think could really benefit from just something. The Luftwaffe Field Officer in place of the AI strafe would pretty much directly upgrade the doctrine by giving it an extra recon on top of the AI strafe. I would say even though it would then be shared with Luftwaffe Supply that these two commanders would still be unique from each other especially after the changes to the latter.

Jaeger Armor Doctrine: This commander I still think needs more nerfs to it as the changes are a good step but not that much has really changed for this commander. The nerf to spotting scopes was warranted but it's kinda been compensated with the addition of Mobile Observation Post to the AT mine. I think the AT strafe should be removed from the commander. An idea could be to replace that with Breakthrough Equipment. Blowing up cover fits the theme of helping spot for the Elefant but it would probably still be weaker than the AT strafe. Or just replace with something even weaker but in general this commander is way to overpicked in team games and needs a substantial change.

Ostruppen as a unit should also probably not get nearly as many buffs as they do currently. The unit is already very strong and we've seen them be very powerful in high level tournaments.

2 ideas that I can give to replace abilities here are the Urban Assault Panzergrenadiers, which could potentially go in Joint Operations since it makes sense thematically to me at least, and maybe a 251 Repair and Recovery Halftrack from the All Units mod, even has animations and everything.

Another idea is an Advanced Panzergrenadier training upgrade that I had that gives the ability to PGs to repair vehicles, build tank traps/caches and so forth but yeah.

I'm quite certain allied bois would not like to add Urban Assault Panzergrenadiers as they can fight shocktroops and commandos

I'm quite certain allied bois would not like to add Urban Assault Panzergrenadiers as they can fight shocktroops and commandos

I'm quite certain not a single person who has ever valued or was concerned about any kind of balance would like to add them.

So I've messed with bunkers a bit and found out that double upgraded bunker has a sight of nearly 85. Both command and med upgrades add the same amount around +70% of sight from initial value of 35. 35 + 0.70*35+0.70*35 is 84. The fix is just remove the sight bonus from either upgrades, or make the sight range bonus mutually exclusive. It should not be this way, since balance team added the double upgrade possibility in the recent patch.

It might be a bug and should be reported to accordingly, but it might be a feature as well. I will wait couple of days for reaction and make a post if none comes.
Scratch that, I'm a complete buffoon


Fixed: Bunker upgrade sight bonuses no longer stack