Non-doc recon

So, I noticed a trend of WFA receiving or getting improvements for non-doc recon.

A few patches ago:
-Soviets: mortar and sniper flares (limited range)
-Ostheer: none
-USF: Major recon (couldn't set direction)
-OKW: Uhu (limited range and bugged)
-UKF: none (vet1 17 pounder flare, bruh...)

Now:
-Soviets: same (except SU85 scope nerfed)
-Ostheer: still none
-USF: can set the direction of the recon planes
-OKW: Uhu recon plane
-UKF: Assault officer recon plane

Now for team games with certain doctrines this esentially means that UKF and OKW may call in off-map artillery almost anywhere on the map with ease, even if the doctrine itself didn't have a recon option. USF always could do that, but now it's even easier to use.

So this brings up the question: are EFA armies going to get similar non-doc recon too? Soviets have flares and similar to ostheer they have some scout units too, but all of these have limited range.
What are the opinions on these new recon options recently added?

I agree, but I'd rather see the planes stripped away from the DLC factions in exchange for accessible infantry recon.

to add:
Soviet: t70
Ostheer: 222
USF: m20
UKF: (arty-)sections

to add:
Soviet: t70
Ostheer: 222
USF: m20
UKF: (arty-)sections

Yes, I referred to them by scout units, we could even add snipers here, ostheer pioneers, M3 scout car, kubel etc, but all these have limited range, ie you can't get a sight of a howitzer back at their base and call arty on it for example.

Yes, I referred to them by scout units, we could even add snipers here, ostheer pioneers, M3 scout car, kubel etc, but all these have limited range, ie you can't get a sight of a howitzer back at their base and call arty on it for example.

Can you get a soviet mortar/sniper in range of a howi? vet3 maybe...

Yeah all of those mostly light vehicle are limited in their recon abilities but you cant really disregard them.
Except for spec ops flares, every recon is limited. Planes can get shot down, vehicles and (stealth) infantry can be zoned out. Limited insight is different to none

Can you get a soviet mortar/sniper in range of a howi? vet3 maybe...

Yeah all of those mostly light vehicle are limited in their recon abilities but you cant really disregard them.
Except for spec ops flares, every recon is limited. Planes can get shot down, vehicles and (stealth) infantry can be zoned out. Limited insight is different to none

I think his point was that if you want to see something (even for a short time to put down an offmap or other arty), recon planes allow you to do so. They usually do not get shot down before you see what you need to see. So even if you have proper AA on the field, your emplacement will be shot.
Three factions have them non-doc (albeit weirdly gated in some), so they for offmaps they don't need team work or a singular commander to combine recon place.

Just to point out that USF change is more of a quality of life change since you could always directed the plane direction before. It is just easier to do now.

Without even thinking the balance and the fact that SOv and Ost have recon planes in their commanders my suggestion for approach would be to just give sov and ost ability to build currently doctrinal officers that have recon non-doctrinally. So basically give them the whole UKF air landing officer treatment as easy way to promote the usage of these units, add flavor and grant access to non-doctrinal off map recon.

I think his point was that if you want to see something (even for a short time to put down an offmap or other arty), recon planes allow you to do so. They usually do not get shot down before you see what you need to see. So even if you have proper AA on the field, your emplacement will be shot.
Three factions have them non-doc (albeit weirdly gated in some), so they for offmaps they don't need team work or a singular commander to combine recon place.

Fair enough but OPs issue seems to be teamgames and i dont really see the issue of required teamplay in teamgames.

Also why only non-doc recon is considered as both, howi and the drop to delete it requires a docs. I personally would include doctrinal options for recon to counter doctrinal abilities like Howitzers.

How would you add non-doc recon planes to soviets and ostheer?

Im not opposed to the idea but atm i dont see how it should be implemented and the need for it. If its needed for teamgames i would agree that planes could be added to both factions but we had to figure out the implications for 1v1

Stock reckon sweeps should be removed from as stock option.

That would even create the need for commander reckon planes.

I think his point was that if you want to see something (even for a short time to put down an offmap or other arty), recon planes allow you to do so. They usually do not get shot down before you see what you need to see. So even if you have proper AA on the field, your emplacement will be shot.
Three factions have them non-doc (albeit weirdly gated in some), so they for offmaps they don't need team work or a singular commander to combine recon place.

This.

Fair enough but OPs issue seems to be teamgames and i dont really see the issue of required teamplay in teamgames.

Also why only non-doc recon is considered as both, howi and the drop to delete it requires a docs. I personally would include doctrinal options for recon to counter doctrinal abilities like Howitzers.

How would you add non-doc recon planes to soviets and ostheer?

Im not opposed to the idea but atm i dont see how it should be implemented and the need for it. If its needed for teamgames i would agree that planes could be added to both factions but we had to figure out the implications for 1v1

Actually even with a casual arranged team the lack of recon was often a problem, more in 3v3. Now on axis side I can just ask an OKW player to get an Uhu for that or make one myself. However with randoms this can get more troublesome.

And yes, the implementation part...ugh. Well, on wfa armies it is on non-mainstream units (I can't describe it better), I mean, okay, one always gets a Major as part of tech, but the Major itself is not meant for frontline combat. The UKF assault officer is pretty strong in cqc, but one wouldn't make one on open maps and the okw uhu is also best used on open maps.
So at first glance the best I can think of, without introducing new units, is the M3 scout car for soviets (would require vet or tech) and the command bunker for ostheer at T3 or 4 (I mean for example the ukf assembly can call in arty). In the latter's case one could upgrade the medic bunker at their base for recon.

Fair enough but OPs issue seems to be teamgames and i dont really see the issue of required teamplay in teamgames.

Also why only non-doc recon is considered as both, howi and the drop to delete it requires a docs. I personally would include doctrinal options for recon to counter doctrinal abilities like Howitzers.

How would you add non-doc recon planes to soviets and ostheer?

Im not opposed to the idea but atm i dont see how it should be implemented and the need for it. If its needed for teamgames i would agree that planes could be added to both factions but we had to figure out the implications for 1v1

As I said in my first post I'd rather remove non-doc planes in general and give the newer factions some other recon similar to EFA pioneers. As a quick thought I'd even go as far as making doctrinal ones cheaper but only provide sight after some small delay and/or provide sight only if a friendly unit is close enough (however this does not make much sense logically). This way there is either enough counter play possible or you can't see any spot on the map anymore.

If I had to choose how OST and SOV get non-doc recon planes, I'd give an additional recon upgrade to the 222 (or unlock with vet or something). Soviets are kind of a hard thing, but I'd probably pick the T70 due to its recon role. Design wise these are all bad choices since they make an already meta unit even better, but thematically they don't fit on other units (unless you want to push for snipers).

Overall, the removal of "easy recon" would be a good thing and also allow for better balancing of backline units such as howitzers since they can't be countered as effortlessly anymore. But that's another topic and we already have a thread about CB and LeFH, so I'll leave it at that note.

This.


Actually even with a casual arranged team the lack of recon was often a problem, more in 3v3. Now on axis side I can just ask an OKW player to get an Uhu for that or make one myself. However with randoms this can get more troublesome.

And yes, the implementation part...ugh. Well, on wfa armies it is on non-mainstream units (I can't describe it better), I mean, okay, one always gets a Major as part of tech, but the Major itself is not meant for frontline combat. The UKF assault officer is pretty strong in cqc, but one wouldn't make one on open maps and the okw uhu is also best used on open maps.
So at first glance the best I can think of, without introducing new units, is the M3 scout car for soviets (would require vet or tech) and the command bunker for ostheer at T3 or 4 (I mean for example the ukf assembly can call in arty). In the latter's case one could upgrade the medic bunker at their base for recon.

Neither the major nor the assault officer need to be anywhere near the front line to call in a reckon sweep in the enemy base.

As for the assault officer one can use it in open map by giving him LMGs, it is not optimal but his low received accuracy make actually good in long range cover to cover fights once equipped with lmgs. Not to mention the very powerful "Heroic Charge" that can also be used in long range cover to cover fight.

So imo OKW do not really have a meaningful advantage when it comes to stock reckon sweeps. Having that said I would rather have all stock reckon planes removed and replaced by a flare for UHH and binocular for major giving him "focus sight vision.

So imo OKW do not really have a meaningful advantage when it comes to stock reckon sweeps. Having that said I would rather have all stock reckon planes removed and replaced by a flare for UHH and binocular for major giving him "focus sight vision.

Actually there are 3 okw doctrines that can benefit from recon sweep:
-Breakthrough, assault artillery. The Uhu also synergises extremelly well with the Jagdtiger, it's a meta team game doctrine.
-Feuerstrum, stuka rocket barrage. It deletes howitzers and this commander is quite meta too in team games.
-Scavenge, 105 mm arty. Okay, this is an odd one out, not only the commander is not meta in team games, but also the arty is kinda meh.

Actually there are 3 okw doctrines that can benefit from recon sweep:
-Breakthrough, assault artillery. The Uhu also synergises extremelly well with the Jagdtiger, it's a meta team game doctrine.
-Feuerstrum, stuka rocket barrage. It deletes howitzers and this commander is quite meta too in team games.
-Scavenge, 105 mm arty. Okay, this is an odd one out, not only the commander is not meta in team games, but also the arty is kinda meh.

There is longer list of USF/UKF commander that benefit from reckon sweeps. Do you want me to provide it? I simply do not see how OKW benefit more than USF or UKF from stock reckon planes.

Keep in mind that have already posted my opinion that stock reckon sweeps should be removed from all faction including OKW.

Even without commander non doc recon for okw was bad idea because stuka zu fuss exist