Some thoughts on OKW and their issues.

No the XP value change was only applied to certain units. As I said XP values are mess.

We are talking about different things.

What you usually refer is to xp requirements for veterancy. I'm talking about the unit xp value which is tied to vet level.

Vet ranks are expressed in numerical values with specific increments. If a unit needs 100xp to vet1, it will be listed with experience_value: 100f and then double that amount for vet2 and so on.

But what that unit receives on each vet level is a modifier which increases the value of the unit, which with outdated extracted attributes shows as plain x1.16 or x1.20 per vet level. In some OKW units only appearing in 4 cases and in others 5.

Split Mech into 2 techs like Battlegroup (albeit with the side tech being much cheaper than the main tech this time). Yes I know this sounds like USF but whatever. Unlock the Luchs without upgrade so the Luchs timing can be fixed. The Stuka and Puma should be locked behind the side tech.

As for Volks, rework their veterancy and have the StG upgrade only use up 1 weapon slot, which allows them to salvage weapons from the field, fitting the faction theme. Remove upgradeable StGs outside of friendly territory.

This is not the point, the issue is another. Sturmpioneers are needed, 100% you always need one of them, and their combat value is only shown at early game.

That is the point. For brits RE are 100% needed since they not only repair minesweep and build defenses, they also give the brits their only anti vehicle snare. Yet the brits instead start with their mainline infantry.

That is the point. For brits RE are 100% needed since they not only repair minesweep and build defenses, they also give the brits their only anti vehicle snare. Yet the brits instead start with their mainline infantry.

Sections are stronger than Volks and Sturmpios are absurdly expensive. If you had OKW start with Volks the faction would have a difficult opening game.

I don't really understand the point of giving OKW Vet 4 and Vet 5 abilities that are effectively worthless in any practical sense since they don't win fights at that point. There is so much you can work with in terms of timing and unit power spikes when it comes to this additional 2 levels of veterancy that could help OKW late game without breaking the other stages of the game.

Realistically, Volks instead of having Vet 1/2/3 combat buffs then vet 4/5 utility. Should probably have Vet 1/3/5 combat buffs (with vet 2 accuracy buff being split between Vet 1/3 with a bias towards vet 1 to give them punch in the early game) while vet 2/4 are their utility abilities.

Currently with the weird early vet gradient of Volks you don't really get a large enough power spike in the expected timeframe between vet 1-3 to make Volks lategame capable enough to hold their own without making them overbearing during the early game. Stretching this to vet 5 would allow an actual ebb and flow of power levels to eventually equal out (or atleast bring Volks up to a point where they aren't completely obliterated by their Allied competition.)

Also side tangent, bring back usable Overwatch Point Flares. The cooldown per unit is ridiculous, and either reduce the build time or allow us to build them on neutral points during capture. These things suck right now.

We are talking about different things.

What you usually refer is to xp requirements for veterancy. I'm talking about the unit xp value which is tied to vet level.

Vet ranks are expressed in numerical values with specific increments. If a unit needs 100xp to vet1, it will be listed with experience_value: 100f and then double that amount for vet2 and so on.

But what that unit receives on each vet level is a modifier which increases the value of the unit, which with outdated extracted attributes shows as plain x1.16 or x1.20 per vet level. In some OKW units only appearing in 4 cases and in others 5.

I think we are talking about the same thing, when I said XP value I meant both at VET 0 and for each vet level:

"OKW Veterancy
With the changes to OKW veterancy, the high values OKW units awarded when damaged are no longer necessary.
Veterancy 5 for select units no longer increases the unit’s current value, reducing the amount of experience they give to other enemy units that hit them."

but as I pointed this has been done only to selected unit which makes it Veterancy system a mess.

I feel that the issue with OKW is that their Volks are hot garbage late game. They have the worse scaling on all mainline infantry. What's the reward for preserving your 4 volks to vet 5 late game? insane bleed because they get trounced by BAR riflemen and 7 man Cons. Maybe let there be an upgrade similar to 7 man cons where the Volks are given elite K98s or a third STG.

I feel that the issue with OKW is that their Volks are hot garbage late game. They have the worse scaling on all mainline infantry. What's the reward for preserving your 4 volks to vet 5 late game? insane bleed because they get trounced by BAR riflemen and 7 man Cons. Maybe let there be an upgrade similar to 7 man cons where the Volks are given elite K98s or a third STG.

Or simply tone down 7 men conscripts/bar riflemen by lowering their vet bonuses.

I feel that the issue with OKW is that their Volks are hot garbage late game. They have the worse scaling on all mainline infantry. What's the reward for preserving your 4 volks to vet 5 late game? insane bleed because they get trounced by BAR riflemen and 7 man Cons. Maybe let there be an upgrade similar to 7 man cons where the Volks are given elite K98s or a third STG.

Ostensibly Volks scale poorly because they are supported early-game by Sturms, and are intended to be supported by/replaced in the lategame by Obersoldaten. (And also because they have a relatively quick powerspike with their STGs in the early-midgame).

I agree that this isnt really great, as has been discussed earlier in the thread. I made a post a page or so back suggesting that Volks be changed to have a "mobilise reserves" style upgrade instead of their STGs, as I do think something like that would suit Volks' intended role better than their current STG upgrade.

Doubt it would gain any traction, but a sidegrade might be interesting to see, and would match with late-war desperation character. Say at panzer authorization you unlock a volksturm 'upgrade' that does something like increase squad size to six and reduces squad pop to 6. Model power could be lowered, yet with a better reinforce cost, all while keeping the squad combat ability roughly the same.

Ultimate end would be to increase scaling through an effective manpower/pop price reduction without affecting overall combat ability, but does give a fresh character to the squad.

Opens room for better synergy with late-game elite infantry.

Schwerer HQ: For the love of god, reduce the range of its main gun. It's game breaking. Game breaking. Why the fuck is OKW able to place that thing on their cutoff with 2 Leigs and just lock down a third of the map? It slows down the game so much and creates and oppressive safe zone for OKW. Super toxic that this can be done by a tier structure. Not a unit, a tier structure. Awful.

+1 Million. Not to mention is just promotes Truck City cancer in team games. Let's require Howies be built outside base so they are vulnerable. Great, now let's cover it with a Flak gun and healing+reinforcement point so that unless you nuke it with an offmap it's impossible to counter conventionally. Much fun will be had by all.

+1 Million. Not to mention is just promotes Truck City cancer in team games. Let's require Howies be built outside base so they are vulnerable. Great, now let's cover it with a Flak gun and healing+reinforcement point so that unless you nuke it with an offmap it's impossible to counter conventionally. Much fun will be had by all.

It being a tier structure makes it a bit of a double edged sword. It's "free" in that it doesn't cost population, and that it will exist in 90% of OKW games. The fact, then, that OKW get a "free" defensive structure they can use to help lock down a point is very strong.

On the other hand, it being a tech structure makes its loss absolutely devastating to OKW, same with any of their other buildings... which is why you don't really see them far forward all that often (Despite them nominally taking the place of structures and units other factions have access to, that DON'T affect tech levels when destroyed). It has almost twice the HP of the allied equivalent (Bofors, 28% more when the Bofors hits Vet 3) and more armour, though does lack brace.

I think it's almost a similar story to Howitzers, its rather binary. If you get the opportunity, it doesnt stand up to a huge amount of abuse from AT guns or similar units, and it can be obliterated with no counterplay with some offmap solutions... but it can be pretty oppressive if, like you say, OKW manage to get a little city/defensive position set up, and you don't have adequate offmaps.

Arguably the Bofors is similarly annoying, but does cost Popcap, and doesn't come during normal teching... though the loss of a Bofors doesnt hurt the Brit anywhere near as badly as the loss of the Flak does an OKW player.


I think if the flak were to be made weaker, then either replacing the Flak HQ might not want to be so costly (For tech purposes, the gun itself could be rebought for a premium, but the truck itself would re-unlock tech), or if it remains the same price, don't require it to be rebuilt for OKW to make at least some of their armoured units. The latter option obviously makes the FlakHQ an almost throwaway unit though, with next to no penalty for its loss, so isnt really viable.


Alternatively, make the Flak Base a Bofors-like "unit" that can be built, and has an associated population cost, and make the Schwerer Panzer HQ a non-combat structure. A tech structure being a combat unit is a cute idea, but I think it has a few too many problems in practice.

while keeping the squad combat ability roughly the same.

I don't see how this is supposed to help.

I don't see how this is supposed to help.

Late-game scaling issues ultimately boil down to the opportunity cost of the unit i.e. is it worth keeping the unit around, or filling that pop with a different unit? Is it worth investing in a mainline in the early game, or saving those resources for an elite unit in the late game?

Reducing the manpower and pop costs for volks in the late game reduces their opportunity cost without substantially changing the tactical matchups.

Late-game scaling issues ultimately boil down to the opportunity cost of the unit i.e. is it worth keeping the unit around, or filling that pop with a different unit?

Are you suggesting that we should just feed vetted squads that are past their powerspike as XP to the other player to free up popcap? Because that is not how the game is designed.

Is it worth investing in a mainline in the early game, or saving those resources for an elite unit in the late game?

It is always worth investing in a mainline in the early game. Do you play games without mainline infantry?

Reducing the manpower and pop costs for volks in the late game reduces their opportunity cost without substantially changing the tactical matchups.

Bleed a little less, but keep bleeding.

Are you suggesting that we should just feed vetted squads that are past their powerspike as XP to the other player to free up popcap? Because that is not how the game is designed.
Bleed a little less, but keep bleeding.

I dont think just feeding your opponent units was what was suggested. Rather, it was more "If I buy this unit, will it scale well? Or should I get a unit that will stay useful longer instead."

Bleeding less is good, it means that you can deal the same amount of damage but at a lower price. Instead of trading 3 25mp models, you trade 3 20mp models. Having lower popcap means you can potentially field an extra squad into a late game composition which is very useful given that volks provide snares as a utility.


That said I am not saying I agree with the original suggestion.

Bleeding less is good, it means that you can deal the same amount of damage but at a lower price. Instead of trading 3 25mp models, you trade 3 20mp models. Having lower popcap means you can potentially field an extra squad into a late game composition which is very useful given that volks provide snares as a utility.

I understand the original author's intent to cause less MP bleed, but the issue really isn't MP bleed late game. Volks don't cause much MP bleed anyway, they're problem is that they are simply too weak late game to offer any serious tactical value.

On the other hand, it being a tech structure makes its loss absolutely devastating to OKW, same with any of their other buildings... which is why you don't really see them far forward all that often (Despite them nominally taking the place of structures and units other factions have access to, that DON'T affect tech levels when destroyed). It has almost twice the HP of the allied equivalent (Bofors, 28% more when the Bofors hits Vet 3) and more armour, though does lack brace.

I guess this highlights the point OrangePest made about the Puma, it is a very powerful unit but if you lose it without it doing much(killing a few lights). you lost the game/are very far behind, Same history with the walking stuka(Cause it delays your medium for a good while), so i guess it`s range(HQ) is to prevent AT guns from just self spotting and killing it without it firing back.

I don't think Spios are bad, even with their limited engagement options, but it does feel extremely restrictive when you fight soviets with their 170mp CEs who can easily get 2 and spam mines while your one Spio has to minesweep, repair, protect the flak HT with its shrek and wire off cover.

I think I've gotten a pretty good understanding of OKW after getting to top 20 a week ago. If it were up to me to make some OKW changes, here's how I would approach it.

Sturmpioneers: I would buff their wire building speed. Currently it's way too slow, which makes them completely unable to wire off cover early game and makes it hard to wire off sandbags from enemy units. About 75% of current wire build time would be good.

Volksgrenadiers: I really don't like this unit whatsoever but I also see how oppressive its upgrade timing is. In general this unit suffers hard lategame, losing badly to every mainline and being unable to trade at any range, especially vs Guards who genocide them. Contrast Volks to Fusiliers who have an extra man, are much better on the move and have a real grenade. I think it would be fair to remove its ability to upgrade STGs in enemy territory, but I would absolutely add some combat veterancy buff at vet 4 or 5, either some RA or Accuracy to help them in the late game.

Mechanized HQ: Kind of an odd request, but I would like to see the repair pioneers made cheaper or even free. With how absurdly expensive and overworked Spios are, they're a necessity.

Raketenwerfer: This is the only anti tank gun without a gunshield and thus its survivability is quite abhorrent. I would absolutely add an RA bonus to balance it out, as it's way too easy to kill/injure its crew.

Obers/Hetzer: No reason why they should arrive without a full Schwerer tech. In my personal opinion it's absolute nonsense, they should require full T3 to be built.

Schwerer HQ: For the love of god, reduce the range of its main gun. It's game breaking. Game breaking. Why the fuck is OKW able to place that thing on their cutoff with 2 Leigs and just lock down a third of the map? It slows down the game so much and creates and oppressive safe zone for OKW. Super toxic that this can be done by a tier structure. Not a unit, a tier structure. Awful.

Pretty much agree with this. SPios are really potent on some maps but really meh on others, and I think having to a pay a premium for a repair unit that in some situations has good combat potential is bad design. I think SPios should be reduced to 200 manpower, start with an MP40/Kar98 or whatever, and then have an upgrade for an additional 100 MP that gives them their current combat package. That way you can have access to repairs without having to invest in an assault unit at the same time.

Agree with the Grens and Volks comparison too. Grens are a really great unit with vet and upgrades - they can melt anything with a good flank, the rifle grenade is so unpredictable and wonky that you can often get wipes with it, and their snare is one of the best IMO because it requires no side tech and comes right away. The only drawback is they are rather weak early game before that, kinda similar to infantry sections. Meanwhile volks feel okay early game but bad late game. I think giving some minor combat bonuses at the higher vet levels would be warranted.

About the Schwerer HQ: definitely agree. Holy shit is this thing cancerous to play against on certain maps. Locking down a huge section of the map, usually a VP that can then remain uncontested while it's alive, thus dragging the game on longer and giving the OKW a chance the power creep. Combine it with double leigs and the feelings of playing against it becomes disturbingly similar to playing against the old Brit sim city. I wouldn't say game breaking, but incredibly frustrating and the game instantly becomes unenjoyable. Definitely needs to go when OKW gets other buffs.

I guess this highlights the point OrangePest made about the Puma, it is a very powerful unit but if you lose it without it doing much(killing a few lights). you lost the game/are very far behind, Same history with the walking stuka(Cause it delays your medium for a good while), so i guess it`s range(HQ) is to prevent AT guns from just self spotting and killing it without it firing back.

Maybe, though I think the FlakHQ is a more extreme example. Losing a Puma too early can really hurt OKW, sure, but losing the FlakHQ (particularly before you can build your mediums) is practically a guaranteed loss.

Every faction has issues with a vital unit crippling them if destroyed before it makes an impact, but no other faction loses tech buildings like OKW does.