Mainline Infantry

I see you are unaware of what the problem was. Each weapon from Grens did 16 damage per shot. 16*5=80. There are often occasions when Units like Rangers/Paras/shocks charge in they have a leading model this mean all 5 gren models target that one model and in 1 volley kills it. Even if you think these guys have lower damage this is what caused them to be able to take down much stronger squads. This problem was prevalent when sections used to be OP. There are some fundamental mechanics that goes beyond dps numbers. Like let me give you a FPS example. In CS GO the m4a4 has a dps of 366 while the awp(sniper) has only 79 dps. But people will tell you that awp is a lot stronger than the m4a4. DPS means nothing if get insta killed.

In the case of shocks, evidently you forgot that shocks have 1.5 armor so even IF all the shots from the 5 gren models were to roll hits, unless they also ALL rolled pens they wouldn't actually down a single shock model.
Against paras, you need to knock out at least two models before you start trimming off their firepower since the Thompson paras have 4 Thompsons which are favored over the m1s. Lmg paras you'd need to take out 4 of them, but against lmg paras the grens have to charge anyway and the likelihood that you'll land all 5 shots on the same model while on the move at mid-long range with grens is so statistically improbable that its not even worth considering.

But even if I grant that a single model of these 6 man elite infantry squads is downed early, do you really think that the 5 man gren squad will be a able to stand toe to toe with 5 shocks in close range? Or 5 Thompson paras in close range?


Yes, against units like conscripts, non bren sections and stock rifles this is a big deal. Its largely irrelevant against elites-or at least not significant enough to tilt an otherwise fair engagement in their favor.

In the case of shocks, evidently you forgot that shocks have 1.5 armor so even IF all the shots from the 5 gren models were to roll hits, unless they also ALL rolled pens they wouldn't actually down a single shock model.
Against paras, you need to knock out at least two models before you start trimming off their firepower since the Thompson paras have 4 Thompsons which are favored over the m1s. Lmg paras you'd need to take out 4 of them, but against lmg paras the grens have to charge anyway and the likelihood that you'll land all 5 shots on the same model while on the move at mid-long range with grens is so statistically improbable that its not even worth considering.

But even if I grant that a single model of these 6 man elite infantry squads is downed early, do you really think that the 5 man gren squad will be a able to stand toe to toe with 5 shocks in close range? Or 5 Thompson paras in close range?


Yes, against units like conscripts, non bren sections and stock rifles this is a big deal. Its largely irrelevant against elites-or at least not significant enough to tilt an otherwise fair engagement in their favor.

Well, if you understand the game so well why not tell sander93 or some other member of balance team that. I'm sure they'll have the same opinion as you at the end. And grens don't need to win they need to cause damage while sustaining less damage them selves. if you loose 1-2 model of your elites before you can even start to damage a 5 man gren that still a win for gren. they'll just retreat with all the mp loss going to you.
Again LMG para's are a lot squishier compared to the old 5 man gren. They'll loose a lot more models before grens loose same amount of mp.

Well, if you understand the game so well why not tell sander93 or some other member of balance team that. I'm sure they'll have the same opinion as you at the end. And grens don't need to win they need to cause damage while sustaining less damage them selves. if you loose 1-2 model of your elites before you can even start to damage a 5 man gren that still a win for gren. they'll just retreat with all the mp loss going to you.
Again LMG para's are a lot squishier compared to the old 5 man gren. They'll loose a lot more models before grens loose same amount of mp.

I was not disagreeing that 5man grens were too strong. I was disagreeing that 5man grens dominated elite infantry in fair fights.

Trading ~30 mp for giving up a fuel point or cutoff or whatever else your two squads were fighting over is not a win. If its just a random engagement on the road, you've still given up field presence.

As for LMG paras, yes the grens had an RE advantage, but the paras have the advantage of 6 models and concentration of firepower on fewer models. This is the same advantage that LMG squads like obers and LMG42 grens have- killing a single model doesn't diminish their overall firepower much because so much is focused on 1 (or 2 for lmg paras) models.

And grens don't need to win they need to cause damage while sustaining less damage them selves.

I want you to really think hard on why you wrote this sentence.

Even if we take your conclusion seriously i.e. that grens somehow 'win' with bleed, despite losing the territory, the conclusion itself is simply untrue.

A while back I did the math on favorable trading for mainlines i.e. how much manpower damage they did minus their opponents manpower damage.

IIRC grens were favored something like 20 manpower/min at 30 range, and conscripts were favored something like 50 manpower/min at 5 range. I'd have to go back and do the numbers again for an exact answer, but the point is that most allied squads are doing 2.5-3x the manpower damage at their preferred range. Gren manpower damage barely affects income assuming you somehow have 3-4 squads always at full health, always shooting.

Imo 1919s need a look at, they make fighting at range pointless while already having a ultra strong cqc ability, basically does what grens do but better while having access to better supporting units (stuart+50cal+howie+atg). It's incredibly cancerous when combined with sandbag. Though the meta commander with it doesn't have it thankfully.

Alright kids let's keep it on track here

Because 5man Grens were a 270mp 60muni squad that could beat every single mainline 1v1, had great on the move DPS thanks to the squad leader G43, was extremely survivable, had free medkits at vet 1, techless 19 range snare, techless rifle grenade that’s bugged half the time and doesn’t produce animation or sometimes warning, and were supported by the cheap 251 for forward reinforcing and healing.

To call whoever put this disgusting unit in the game incompetent is an understatement.

Don't forget vet3 damage reduction lul