Ostheer sux ass

I don't think spectating 14 games on ladder means you should radically redesign everything about Ostheer, a faction design that has lasted mostly intact since 2013.

What the Hell are you talking about. Release(even as far back as 2017) Wehr is no where near the same thing as Wehr. Tier skipping completely gone there is no such thing anymore(frankly it's the whole god damn communities fault that non linear teching has been eradicated from all factions). The basic philosophy of the faction is no longer the what it was even as far back as just 2017 let alone 2013(but that can be said for all factions really).

armies are being balanced against volks which are just better grens for the most part, so it shouldn't be a surprise that grens are underpreforming, and 5 men or some other infantry is the only viable open for OST.

It's exactly the opposite. Volks are pure garbage lategame and need a lategame buff ASAP. LMG Grens are very competent and become very powerful with camouflage/sprint if you pick the right doctrine. Ostheer is however a fragile faction for a variety of reasons. LMG Grens are long range specialists, MG42 is slow and if flanked and caught out of position it probably has to retreat, exposing your entire front. Big dependence on support teams (42, pak40, sniper) leads to fragility compared to OKW/USF builds that focus on numerous infantry. Ostheer doesn't have LV dominance because of the 222's fragility so it suffers from the dominant allied LVs (T70, Quad, AAHT, Stuart, Valentine) if it spreads out.

Ostheer absolutely has a higher skill ceiling than other factions. The issue is most players have gotten used to abusing the completely broken 5man Grens and Osttruppen and now have to play the faction properly and their delusions about their own skill have been completely shattered. They need to inhale a lot of copium and quickly.

Stats lie. Different match ups, different maps, different commanders, different build orders, different opponents, different RNG.

Always be skeptical with statistics, most are misleading or misinterpreted.

Ostheer has been consistently buffed since 2016/2017 ever since balance preview mod. It's a little crazy saying they suck.

Watch ML4 tourney, Ostheer didn't seem underwhelming.

It's exactly the opposite. Volks are pure garbage lategame and need a lategame buff ASAP.

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On-Topic: This thread is an interesting analysis, though I will agree that a larger sample size/larger-scale investigation might be in order.

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I really don't think Volks should get more men, they were meant to have less men than standard Infanterie divisions. And 6 men sounds rather cancerous IMO. Pretty much any upgrade that adds an extra man to the squad is extremely strong, and Volks don't need a mid game buff, just a late game one. Rather, let the StG upgrade only take one weapon slot or let T3 add an StG to the squad. Or, if you wanted to be realistic, give the squad a veteran model upgrade or something.

I really don't think Volks should get more men, they were meant to have less men than standard Infanterie divisions. Rather, let the StG upgrade only take one weapon slot or let T3 add an StG to the squad. Or, if you wanted to be realistic, give the squad a veteran model upgrade or something.

Sure, though the CoH2 Volks are apparently kind of a mish-mash of "real" divisions already, rather than strictly being based on one particular type of division.

And i mean, hey, Volk squads already have more men than Gren squads, I don't think their having fewer men is part of their design as it is.

I don't think balancing around how many weapon slots an upgrade takes is particularly great, incidentally. You can't reliably make weapons drop, and if you're fighting SOV it's quite possible they'll have no squads with droppable weapons (Except perhaps a flamethrower).

Also; I don't think you can replace an existing model in a squad with another with an upgrade, if that's what you're suggesting.

Ostheer basically in the best state it's been in years (and it's always been a top faction) and people are still upset, amazing.

Please, lets be honest, the only thing the was keeping Ost playable before the last patch was the Infantry Doctrine 5men Gren upgrade.

In this last patch the "brillant" balance team decided to nerf it (dont know why), setting Ost again in an horrible balance position.

Also decided to nerf another important units of Ost roster like Brumm Armor and sniper LOS.

Please, lets be honest, the only thing the was keeping Ost playable before the last patch was the Infantry Doctrine 5men Gren upgrade.

In this last patch the "brillant" balance team decided to nerf it (dont know why), setting Ost again in an horrible balance position.

Also decided to nerf another important units of Ost roster like Brumm Armor and sniper LOS.

God forbid you actually have to micro your sniper and use it in combined arms with other units scouting and spotting instead of just attack moving it.

Please with the exaggerations about "horrible" balance position for Ostheer, as if they aren't an excellent faction in all game modes right now.

God forbid you actually have to micro your sniper and use it in combined arms with other units scouting and spotting instead of just attack moving it.

Please with the exaggerations about "horrible" balance position for Ostheer, as if they aren't an excellent faction in all game modes right now.

What gives you the impression they're "Excellent" in all gamemodes right now? The patch hasn't been out all that long, have you been able to collect much data?

What gives you the impression they're "Excellent" in all gamemodes right now? The patch hasn't been out all that long, have you been able to collect much data?

The same could be said about ost being weaker. Do you have that data to suggest that they are performing poorly. I belive its likely more to do with the what storm said. People using 5 man grens and osttruppen and playing like its wfa faction.

The same could be said about ost being weaker. Do you have that data to suggest that they are performing poorly. I belive its likely more to do with the what storm said. People using 5 man grens and osttruppen and playing like its wfa faction.

Op's analysis is all I'd have to go on at the moment, which implies they're not as good as might be hoped. I'd still want to see more data before commenting concretely, either way.

Also: That's the thing, people HAVE been using 5man grens and Ostruppen and trying to play OST "like an WFA faction". It's been argued that this is because that's what /works/ for OST, and now that both 5man and Ostruppen can't be crutched upon, the faction isnt as strong as it appeared to be. I think it's possible this is true, but I'd want to hear what the top OST players have to say about it, really.

It's exactly the opposite. Volks are pure garbage lategame and need a lategame buff ASAP. LMG Grens are very competent and become very powerful with camouflage/sprint if you pick the right doctrine. Ostheer is however a fragile faction for a variety of reasons.

OKW's stronger vehicle line-up and Ober synergy compensate for weak volks far better than Pgrens and OST's comparatively bad vehicles.

Don't get me wrong, Pgrens are really great mid-game and early late-game, but a 4 man squad with a midrange damage profile no upgrade and meh veterancy quickly loses it's effectiveness with a couple tanks on the field and opponent infantry are carrying double upgrades.

T4 ought to be a saving grace, however by the time you get there almost all your pop is consumed by the massive amount of poorly scaling infantry you need just to keep a foot on the field. At best you can only field 2 vehicles from it, both specialists, when other factions are capable of running around with 3-4 generalist premiums.

OKW's stronger vehicle line-up and Ober synergy compensate for weak volks far better than Pgrens and OST's comparatively bad vehicles.

I'd argue that OST has a stronger lategame vehicle lineup than OKW does, but I can see this being up to personal opinion/playstyle.

The Brummbar and Pwerfer give OSTheer a distinct edge against infantry that OKW sort of lack in their vehicle offerings, which is kind of what the "weak" volks would be wanting to deal with. In terms of fighting vehicles, OST's infantry AT is superior to OKWs (nondoctrinally), Shreck Pgrens clearly outpacing a Shreck'd Sturm. Stug vs JP4 is a debate that could go either way, they both have their strengths and weaknesses.

OKW's big vehicular gimmick is the KT, which isnt exactly an unit used in every game.

Ober synergy is great, I agree, which is why I'd suggest Volks lean more heavily into supporting future Obers rather than being a "direct combat" unit that the STG upgrade seems to want to make them into. Obers' greatest flaw at the moment is their timing. By the time you can build them you are likely to have a "full" infantry roster, and at least personally I have trouble fitting Obers in without the expectation that I'll lose a couple Volk squads... which honestly I don't always have happen. I can't see Obers coming /sooner/ than they do now, though, as they're so incredibly powerful.

The Brummbar and Pwerfer give OSTheer a distinct edge against infantry that OKW sort of lack in their vehicle offerings, which is kind of what the "weak" volks would be wanting to deal with. In terms of fighting vehicles, OST's infantry AT is superior to OKWs (nondoctrinally), Shreck Pgrens clearly outpacing a Shreck'd Sturm. Stug vs JP4 is a debate that could go either way, they both have their strengths and weaknesses.

I should probably clarify that I'm speaking mostly from a 1v1 perspective, where I'd rarely build any of these units even with a ton of resource float. I know these are all much stronger in team games.

Unfortunately the game hasn't been balanced for team-mode scaling which does create a ton of secondary balance issues, but there doesn't seem to be much interest in addressing that.

Ideally they'd start by normalizing the economy between game modes by standardizing the number of strategic points on maps instead of 4v4 maps having 2-4 extra, and have some sort of cost scaling for caches, but none of that has been taken up either. Until then my balance concerns are for 1v1.

I should probably clarify that I'm speaking mostly from a 1v1 perspective, where I'd rarely build any of these units even with a ton of resource float. I know these are all much stronger in team games.

Unfortunately the game hasn't been balanced for team-mode scaling which does create a ton of secondary balance issues, but there doesn't seem to be much interest in addressing that.

Ideally they'd start by normalizing the economy between game modes by standardizing the number of strategic points on maps instead of 4v4 maps having 2-4 extra, and have some sort of cost scaling for caches, but none of that has been taken up either. Until then my balance concerns are for 1v1.

In terms of 1v1 I'd argue that OST absolutely has the advantage over OKW in terms of armour, honestly. The Pwerfer and Brummbar are very common in 1v1s, and the only other major outlying unit in OKW's favour is probably the Puma.

In terms of 1v1 I'd argue that OST absolutely has the advantage over OKW in terms of armour, honestly. The Pwerfer and Brummbar are very common in 1v1s, and the only other major outlying unit in OKW's favour is probably the Puma.

I can't speak for your experience. Maybe we just play in different circles, but I've only ever seen brumms and pwerfers lose for the OST player in a close 1v1 game. I think the armies simply aren't large enough for a dedicated role t4 unit in that game mode. P4's can maintain an armor advantage against other mediums while still dealing with infantry. They just do so worse than the OKW p4. If something bigger comes on the field you either need a tiger or hope you can protect your PaKs since the stug's short range is worthless when combined with infantry that doesn't have the health to push and spot for it. Panther will just get zoned by TD's it can't approach without getting snared, or AT guns that can't get cleared because, again, the weak infantry can't push.

In terms of 1v1 I'd argue that OST absolutely has the advantage over OKW in terms of armour, honestly. The Pwerfer and Brummbar are very common in 1v1s, and the only other major outlying unit in OKW's favour is probably the Puma.

I'll take a potentially Vet5 PiVJ and Panther over their counterparts, and the JPiV, allll day long.

If it wasn't so expensive, probably the Stuka over the Werfer as well.

Stats lie. Different match ups, different maps, different commanders, different build orders, different opponents, different RNG.

Always be skeptical with statistics, most are misleading or misinterpreted.

Ostheer has been consistently buffed since 2016/2017 ever since balance preview mod. It's a little crazy saying they suck.

Watch ML4 tourney, Ostheer didn't seem underwhelming.

I didn't present a single statistic other than the win% of the sample I saw; I presented the maps, match ups, commanders and openings.

You're welcome to be skeptical, but like I said to Katitof, doing so without actually adding to a discussion isn't exactly constructive.

I didn't see every game in ML4, what I did see was OKW being picked equally as often in days 2-4 (might be wrong) and when Ostheer were chosen, Ass Grens, VSL or Ostruppen, openings which don't perform in the same way, or nearly as well, any longer.

I'll take a potentially Vet5 PiVJ and Panther over their counterparts, and the JPiV, allll day long.

If it wasn't so expensive, probably the Stuka over the Werfer as well.

Sure, if you GET a vet 5 PiV or Panther, but we both know that getting a veterancy 5 vehicle like that isnt a sure thing, and that vet 4/5 generally aren't the most impactful bonuses. I'm still saying that the Ostwind, StuG, and Brummbar especially make up for the lack of vet 4/5.

The Jp4 is nice, also, though it's primarily an "anti-td" TD.

Also: the Stuka and Pwerfer have rather different roles, It's hard to say which of the two is "better", as they do different things, but I'd probably rather have a Werfer in a 1v1 rather than a Stuka.