Intel/Recon - key to victrory

Jump back to quoted post10 Mar 2021, 14:52 PMVipper

Having to spend munition for extra sight is also not a good idea since its it sole role it provide vision.

Jump back to quoted post10 Mar 2021, 16:36 PMpvtgooner

Yeah 35 sounds good to me, its just as arbitary a point like anything else you pick (63?????)

Jump back to quoted post10 Mar 2021, 16:36 PMpvtgooner

But the point vipper, that you always seem to miss, is that wasn't the discussion of what OP put forward. Have you ever wondered why you start so many threads that begin with a quote from another thread with you saying "it was off topic"? Because you derail almost every thread you jump in, specifically if it has anything to do with a slight axis change. Like he just said spotting scopes should be a muni activated ability, stated his case with the evidence you demanded from me, and you just drone on about IRHT. Its very hard to actually discuss what OP wanted to discuss in that environment.

Jump back to quoted post10 Mar 2021, 16:39 PMpvtgooner

I mean look at this retort from you. You demand all this evidence with your non sensical gip gallosh style of debating while you have gems like "oh its not a good idea since the sole role is vision"??????? What law of COH says vision extending abilities cant cost munis since its vision? There are TONS of muni activated vision abilities in this game, saying other wise is just bad faith and bordering on lying.

Jump back to quoted post10 Mar 2021, 17:55 PMporkloin

Is this really a thread whose entire premise is "all the factions need to be identical"?

Jump back to quoted post10 Mar 2021, 12:42 PMgeneral_gawain

Since CoH2 is all about having the right intel at the right time, the game is all about knowing where the units of your opponent are to position/move your units in the right way. This is pretty much realistic because it was the same in reality. Intel is the key to victory in every battle.

There are three main ways to get direct sight
1. planes (Commander / nondoc officers) -> medium munition cost / short-medium timed / counterable with AA
2. recon units -> get better with vet / constant
3. unit flares -> low munition cost / long timed
(commander flares will be probably and rightfully patched out of the game as it seems, so I won’t include them)

Since vision is so important in this game I don’t understand the huge difference between factions. Especially at recon units. While I found no allied unit which has more than 55 sight including Vet we have the doctrinal scope and the Infrared HT. Infrared HT gives 75 sight, scoped 222 gives about 70 sight without vet and 90 sight (which is really “overkill”) with vet while not moving. Its already 60 sight for vetted 222 without scope.
The 55 sight seems to be carefully balanced about risk vs reward, you always risk loosing your vetted M20 for example because there are AT units which can snipe you at that distance if your opponent has vision by himself (nondoc: PAK at Ostheer, JPIV at OKW / plus doctrinal ones). So I don’t understand this riskless “overkill” constant sight at axis factions while extra sight at doctrinal Vet3 Greyhound was stripped for example.

Proposal:
- all recon units should be capped at 55 or 60 (222/Puma) sight with vet
- Scopes and Infrared HT should have timed munition costing abilities that give them their sight range bonus (similar to timed sight from unit flares)
- 90 sight for vetted and scoped 222 is overkill, lower a bit even if timed
- Greyhound should get back its sight bonus in form of a Vet 1 munition costing timed ability (as proposed for IR HT and scoped 222) which should disable the weapons too while activated. This is RECON company and it has neither flares nor a vehicle that has better sight as the nondoc M20 (only the Pathfinders which you get without artillery call-in at Airborne too = same sight as M20)


Yeah this seems to be all about nerf axis, and to be honest yeah it is. But you can’t just make such huge differences at the key element of this game. Axis recon vehicles counter allied recon vehicles, since IR HT or 222 (with vet and/or scope) plus PAK or JPIV = dead allied recon vehicle. This isn’t the case in reverse.

The huge sight bonus of recon units wouldn’t get stripped from axis, this would be unfair, because soviet has nondoc mortar flares and UKF/USF get somehow nondoc recon plane in the course of the battle. The difference is, that all recon abilites that give more than 55/60 sight should be activated for a given time and cost some munition. That way recon would be standardized about ranges and cost somehow but still be asymmetric in its form.

Jump back to quoted post11 Mar 2021, 01:08 AMNaOCl

If you nerf axis sight, then you must make axis and allies have the same TD range.

Jump back to quoted post11 Mar 2021, 01:19 AMgeneral_gawain

Axis already has the same TD range and doctrinal better (Elephant/Jagdtiger). JPIV has 60 range and will win every 1vs1 TD duel because of better ROF and smaller target size and even more health at Vet2. It just struggles a little more versus the real allied heavies because of lower penetration values compared to allied TDs. A pair of JPIVs synergies very well if not too good with IR HT in picking off reckless enemy tanks/vehicles at the frontline. I use it a lot when playing OKW and always wondered why everybody is rushing for Panther.
Panther on the other side is a complete other design with lots of armor, speed and health. It already has 50 range. Do you want it to have 60 range without changing the other stats?

Beyond that nerfing allied recon mode an SU-85 sight where part of this discusion too.

Jump back to quoted post11 Mar 2021, 01:35 AMNaOCl

The arguments are always the same. What you have written, looks good on paper, but doesn't play out in game.

-JP-IV has too low pen to do anything until vet, which it takes too long to reach.

Jump back to quoted post11 Mar 2021, 01:47 AMgeneral_gawain

Since I haved used this combination a lot it is not based on paper but on personal experience. JPIV penetrates any allied TD + any stock allied medium tank automatically at any range plus most doctrinal choices too. What do you want in addition? Because of greatest ROF of all Vet0 TDs in this game you should own any stock light or medium tank unit with it and level it until the heavies come out were you will bounce some shots of course.
My experience is based on 2vs2 and up since I play AT with friends usually. We play allied factions more but always play the axis side too (I play 90% OKW then). In 2vs2 and up I have a completely other experience from the one you portraited a moment ago. I'm usually a lot more relaxed in late game with axis. Ask my friends I'm not constantly yelling at them when playing axis XD

Jump back to quoted post11 Mar 2021, 01:52 AMNaOCl

Maybe because as axis, you don't care about winning.

Jump back to quoted post11 Mar 2021, 01:52 AMNaOCl

But either way, your use of the JP-IV is an outlier, There is no OKW vehicle built less often.

Jump back to quoted post11 Mar 2021, 01:52 AMNaOCl

I'll take longer range, better rate of fire and higher accuracy and higher damage over time on my allied TD's. (all factors lend to ease of use)

Jump back to quoted post11 Mar 2021, 02:21 AMgeneral_gawain

Wtf? Why on earth I shouldn't want to win with axis? Please don't troll me.




And thats not understandable. Yeah. i can understand to build a PZIV first if you need more AI, depending on game situation. I do that too. But why is everybody rushing for Panther, if you have a stock TD that wins vs every allied medium or TD? I got them to Vet5 already. Why not using them?



Then take JPIV, it keeps its ROF advantage with vetting in comparison to allied TDs. Range an accuracy is similar. Health will get better with vet, it can take a hit more. The slightly lower PEN only takes effect when fighting heavies. Firefly has better damage always but a lower RoF by far.

Jump back to quoted post11 Mar 2021, 00:56 AMgeneral_gawain

This thread is about paying for it regardless of source and making it timed. Anything else is lazy and not understandable in a micro intensive game light CoH2. Just park your 90 sight Vet2 222 with scope somewhere in safety behind your frontline and keep it there until your frontline moves.

Jump back to quoted post11 Mar 2021, 02:38 AMporkloin

A lot of the muni economy already feels lacking in purpose and like an unnecessary micro tax as it is, so I'm definitely not in favor of converting already existing abilities into muni-sinks.

I don't see any problem with the existing recon abilities large enough to justify sweeping changes that will surely create exponentially larger balance issues elsewhere.

I do think there might be a few recon abilities that are too strong, not because they are too cheap, but because they provide so much sight that they dramatically alter the gameplay formula without a strong counterplay mechanic.

Jump back to quoted post11 Mar 2021, 01:35 AMNaOCl

The arguments are always the same. What you have written, looks good on paper, but doesn't play out in game.

-The panther is unwieldy to use, has a low ROF and usually is on half hp in the late game, due to the superior SU-85, USF Jackson or British Firefly initial shot at greater range. Hence why only P-IV is built.

The panther is not unwieldly to use, its one of the best tanks in the game. You just can't a-move and win with it like you used to be able to in the early and middle days of the game

-JP-IV has too low pen to do anything until vet, which it takes too long to reach.

What are you having trouble penning on the allied side with a jp4 lol?

-Tiger has the same problems, whilst being limited to one.

Tiger having trouble penning allied armor l0l ok

-The only option is to spam pak 40 as OST or hope you can capture AT guns as OKW.

Before you scream bias, I don't care about which faction I play, I play the factions I win the most with, that has led me to playing SOV>USF>OST>UKF>OKW.
When I play allies, I am confident in the late game. When I play axis, I never feel confident (change your mindset, axis factions are undeniably better late game factions, dont let your lack of confidence lead you to throw engagements you likely win easily with a little micro.) early or late, unless I significantly outplay my opponent early and deny all fuel.

Jump back to quoted post11 Mar 2021, 09:28 AMMMX

i'd also say there is nothing wrong with some recon options outranging at-guns or flares being 'uncounterable' by aa. as was pointed out before, the latter applies to single-pass recon planes as well; the only problem with flares is that they provide too much vision for a too long period for too little cost or other restrictions (e.g. being bound to a unit with certain activation range).

Jump back to quoted post11 Mar 2021, 16:01 PMPip

The Panther is a fine tank, but it is riskier to use than an allied TD, due to needing to be closer (and therefore being more vulnerable).

Honestly, I would argue its less risky but I think it could also be a push on that topic due to armor values

The JP4 struggles to penetrate heavy tanks, of which the Soviets and Brits don't really lack. The JP4 is a TD intended to fight other TDs, and it also does really well vs mediums. Axis have the Panther for heavier vehicles, but it's used differently.

I think jp4 is very balanced unit, but if any of the vehicles on this topic could be considered "unwieldly" itd probably be this one.

The Soviets are one of the best lategame factions.

Yeah soviets are definitely the best allied late game faction but I'd still give the late game advantages to axis on the whole axis vs allies. I wasn't even trying to be mean when I said that to him, just legit don't psyche yourself out and throw games because you feel like you're gonna get beat no matter what.