OKW Commander Revamp 2021

Generally speaking, the parachutist offer little other by a nice gimmick and saving some time in entering the field.

That is so wrong - you are missing/misreading/ignoring many points that both Katitof and Hannibal are listing. Let's rephrase that for you and let me add a few points from my extensive experience of facing usf paras as OST 2on2:

a) Paras telegraph to the enemy that Paras are going to land (plane on the minimap, and it's easy to figure out possible location due to plane path)
b) they take ages to spawn, and ages to land and ages to be ready to engage the enemy.
b2) because they need ages to ready up, they are not of any use for a long time (no capping, no flanking, no usefulness at all).
c) they need a large space to land safely. There are not that many in 2on2 maps. Players waste time deciding where to use the ability, not microing other parts of the game.
d) even if they land safely, and without alerting the enemy, they need ammo and most importantly crucial time for them to upgrade to a good weapon.
d2) by the time they are ready to do something, they're superseded by better units.
e) they will most likely have to retreat through the front lines, and most likely lose more models.
f) more!

That gimmick that you are trying to tell us is advantageous is actually a massive disadvantage. Honestly, I love facing paras usf, the whole commander is useless and badly designed but pathfinders for early recon. USF paras are just a waste of manpower, ammo, and time if landing behind enemy lines. It shows you have little clues about actual play. Falls commander is better in every way.

Potentially [Falls] could also focus more on diversion and swap the booby trap ability from Obersoldaten. This would probably be a good change overall since Obers come already loaded with two grenades and a vet suppression ability. Technically, I could even imagine them to have a more "dig in" type of design, allowing them to build trenches (possible in non-friendly territory only).

i like that idea a lot. booby traps would be a much better fit for falls as some kind of diversion/sabotage type ability. maybe they could even get access to some sort of light AT mines now that they've lost their snare.

Then perhaps you should not have whined for nerfs of every single light vehicle in existence, then we would have a mid game, because you wouldn't be able to just ignore mid game for posing too little threat to care. For years you were directly advocating for the game to end in this state by calling nerfs to everything pre med tank phase and now you are complaining about it? This is what you and others always wanted, where is the problem?

It is good that you have acknowledged that some of my suggestions make it to game but I am afraid you gone from one extreme to other. I am not the one that decided what goes into a the game Relic.

You also seem to have missed many point:

I have not call "nerfs of every single light vehicle in existence"

Even top players I have asked agree to some light vehicles arrive too early

"last tier mentality" for some faction mean unit above medium tank

It is also a mentality that was not suggested by me, on the contrary I have advised against it

I doubt that light vehicle has become obsolete in game and I see 222 to T-70,Stuart, AEC, 251 regularly

UKF completely voids that argument for stock army and for doctrinal, MP40 volks exist already.
If every single role was always needed, as you claim, DLC factions wouldn't be designed lacking these roles by default.

I have not idea why you bring UKF design while quoting my post that is about OKW.

As for MP40 VG they are close oriented and not mid and I pointed that need for mid oriented squad not close one to fill the gap of the stock roster, MP-40 are also doctrinal.

He said:

You are the first one to call them infiltration unit, he didn't even indirectly.
Stop projecting your thoughts onto others, its insulting to other posters and shows your utter disregard for their arguments.

And actually did no claim that he said that JLI are an infiltration (although it seem he did).

It seem that Hannibal is pretty capable of clarifying thing and he does not seem to be in need of an advocated.

That is so wrong - you are missing/misreading/ignoring many points that both Katitof and Hannibal are listing. Let's rephrase that for you and let me add a few points from my extensive experience of facing usf paras as OST 2on2:

a) Paras telegraph to the enemy that Paras are going to land (plane on the minimap, and it's easy to figure out possible location due to plane path)
b) they take ages to spawn, and ages to land and ages to be ready to engage the enemy.
b2) because they need ages to ready up, they are not of any use for a long time (no capping, no flanking, no usefulness at all).
c) they need a large space to land safely. There are not that many in 2on2 maps. Players waste time deciding where to use the ability, not microing other parts of the game.
d) even if they land safely, and without alerting the enemy, they need ammo and most importantly crucial time for them to upgrade to a good weapon.
d2) by the time they are ready to do something, they're superseded by better units.
e) they will most likely have to retreat through the front lines, and most likely lose more models.
f) more!

That gimmick that you are trying to tell us is advantageous is actually a massive disadvantage. Honestly, I love facing paras usf, the whole commander is useless and badly designed but pathfinders for early recon. USF paras are just a waste of manpower, ammo, and time if landing behind enemy lines. It shows you have little clues about actual play. Falls commander is better in every way.

I don't know why you point this out. Vipper said parachuting is not more than a little gimmick, you say parachuting behind enemy lines is shit as well. It's not like you two are really disagreeing on major points.
Some of your points also don't say much because you do not mention any alternatives. Yes, Paras and Falls take some time to land. But your alternative is to build a main line/Obers, and those don't spawn at the press of a button either.


I'll leave it at that since this part of the discussion has less to do with OKW commanders rather than spawn mechanics.

I don't know why you point this out. Vipper said parachuting is not more than a little gimmick, you say parachuting behind enemy lines is shit as well. It's not like you two are really disagreeing on major points.
Some of your points also don't say much because you do not mention any alternatives. Yes, Paras and Falls take some time to land. But your alternative is to build a main line/Obers, and those don't spawn at the press of a button either.


I'll leave it at that since this part of the discussion has less to do with OKW commanders rather than spawn mechanics.

The way Vipper's sum of all comments are written is that any unit & commander alternatives to OKW should be more like Paras because they have a nice gimmick (along with other posts strongly suggesting this). I strongly disagree that they are nice. Hence me putting my long lists of points on why paras are NOT good, and that they should not be used as design idea basis for a good OKW commander. The whole USF para commander plain sucks. Any result would just be utterly bad as the USF paras commander. I'd rather see something else instead than a paras/airborne OKW commander clone that comes with an endless big fat "HEY I'm using ability here" button. I would love to see more units spawned from ambient buildings instead. Something more sneaky to make infantry and tanks more sneaky. I don't want a new infantry that fills the void. I want Cameo deployed trucks! Cameo units! Cameo everything! Cameo abilities to be an utter dick to my opponents.

edit: I know, no new units, but there are plenty of cameo stuff from OST (and even UKF) which sucks in OST but may be good for OKW...

The way Vipper's sum of all comments are written is that any unit & commander alternatives to OKW should be more like Paras because they have a nice gimmick (along with other posts strongly suggesting this). I strongly disagree that they are nice. Hence me putting my long lists of points on why paras are NOT good, and that they should not be used as design idea basis for a good OKW commander. Any result would just be utterly bad as the USF paras commander. I'd rather see something else instead than a paras OKW commander clone that comes with an endless big fat "HEY I'm using ability here" button. I would love to see more units spawned from ambient buildings instead. Something more sneaky to make infantry and tanks more sneaky. Cameo deployed trucks! Cameo units! Cameo everything!

edit: I know, no new units, but there are plenty of cameo stuff from OST which sucks in OST but may be good for OKW...

I agree that Falls should not follow the USF design and also that Paras and Falls are not meant to be used offensively anymore, but apart from point point d) due to the lack of camo (however Falls also should upgrade first) I don't see how your points only apply to Paras. I debate point c) since there are plenty of good drop spots on 2v2 maps in my opinion, even for the larger circle of Paras.

On the spawn mechanics I'll probably open a new thread since I find this topic quite interesting, but it does not really fit here.

I agree that Falls should not follow the USF design and also that Paras and Falls are not meant to be used offensively anymore, but apart from point point d) due to the lack of camo (however Falls also should upgrade first) I don't see how your points only apply to Paras. I debate point c) since there are plenty of good drop spots on 2v2 maps in my opinion, even for the larger circle of Paras.

Well, yeah, hence me suggesting to move completely away from paras and rethink in a completely different direction instead. Rename falls to something else if needed, add different abilities from OST, and bang, new cameo commander.


edit: I also like the idea of the SOV partisan commander but applied to OKW. 4 man volkstroops with AT from ambient perhaps?

I don't know why you point this out. Vipper said parachuting is not more than a little gimmick, you say parachuting behind enemy lines is shit as well. It's not like you two are really disagreeing on major points.
Some of your points also don't say much because you do not mention any alternatives. Yes, Paras and Falls take some time to land. But your alternative is to build a main line/Obers, and those don't spawn at the press of a button either.


I'll leave it at that since this part of the discussion has less to do with OKW commanders rather than spawn mechanics.

The point is that he upsells things like parachuting when its little more than a gimmick "oh no parachuting is too strong, i suggest you make falls an infiltration unit" or "axis never parachuted(lolwat) so falls need to be inflitration" knowing an infiltration unit is coming on the field in a much safer way.

I'm not sure why so many people dont get this yet.