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German Infantry Commander adjustments

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Grumpy
11 Mar 2021, 01:18 AM
#21
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jump backJump back to quoted post11 Mar 2021, 00:53 AMEtherealDragon


I just did a test in cheat mod and 5 Men Grens won 3/4 at medium-long range at Vet 3. The one they lost was because Cons got a lucky early model kill and swung the engagement. You're welcome to provide evidence to the contrary but I don't really believe that they lose at longer ranges. Both upgrades add an extra model and Grens natively have better long range DPS. The STG also has better long DPS than the G43 as well so I don't see how losing the 10% Racc means they suddenly lose to Cons long range without the LMG42.


This is my go-to commander in most games. VSL squads don't struggle with Cons. The extra model makes engineers really durable and more useful than ever. There is so much indirect in 4v4's that the LMG42 was a mixed benefit anyways. If I had any wishes for this commander, I'd like the bombing run to kill howitzers instead of decrewing and some damage, even if they increased the muni cost. Also, too many of the abilities are muni based. Drop one of those and let me build JPIV's and this would be my commander in every game.
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ZeroZeroNi
11 Mar 2021, 07:09 AM
#22
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Posts: 1563

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Mar 2021, 20:00 PMMr Carmine


If you want to talk price you leave out quite a bit for cons. They require t3 plus side tech or t4 to go 7th man. It quite a big difference, To my knowlidge grens only require cp. Vsl also gives more then just the 5th model.

The stock units supporting grens from start to finish are also of higher quility then what cons get. This should be taken into account.
Imho ost has no problem dishing out damage its the faction with the most wipe potential out of all of them. The problem/balance is their small squads cant take a beating, vsl fixes that. But that doesnt mean it should make grens into a move longe range units that can act independantly at all times.

I'm sorry but that's a terrible argument. What about USF their supporting army isn't weak at all compared to ost. but just because riflemen have 40 more mp cost than gren they essentially beat them at every range. What about UKF they are 'allied ost' their supporting army isn't weak either, again granted it's 60 mp this time again can't beat em at any range. That is not consistent justification.

And T4 tech requirement means nothing.
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ZeroZeroNi
11 Mar 2021, 07:14 AM
#23
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Posts: 1563

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Mar 2021, 00:53 AMEtherealDragon


You're welcome to provide evidence to the contrary

can I see your tests plz, cause i'm finding this a little hard to believe.
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Mr Carmine
11 Mar 2021, 07:32 AM
#24
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Posts: 1289

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Mar 2021, 07:09 AMZeroZeroNi

I'm sorry but that's a terrible argument. What about USF their supporting army isn't weak at all compared to ost. but just because riflemen have 40 more mp cost than gren they essentially beat them at every range. What about UKF they are 'allied ost' their supporting army isn't weak either, again granted it's 60 mp this time again can't beat em at any range. That is not consistent justification.

And T4 tech requirement means nothing.


With usf you go one or the other route you dont have all the units at your disposal unless you backtech or get doctrines unlike ost.

Just try not to tech as soviets and get the 7th man. You cant cant. Cp slowly gains over time and costs nothing you will get vsl regardless of tech. It unrealistic i know but to say t4 requirement means nothing is just wrong.
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ZeroZeroNi
11 Mar 2021, 12:27 PM
#25
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Posts: 1563

What???? Really there is nothing more you can say other than BS.

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Mar 2021, 07:32 AMMr Carmine


With usf you go one or the other route you dont have all the units at your disposal unless you backtech or get doctrines unlike ost.

Right the balance team basically removed any disadvantages/drawbacks/risk involved with parallel teching for every single faction so that's not even worth considering.


Just try not to tech as soviets and get the 7th man. You cant cant. Cp slowly gains over time and costs nothing you will get vsl regardless of tech. It unrealistic i know but to say t4 requirement means nothing is just wrong.


Yes of course don't play the game at all what a realistic statement. May I remind you you need to actually build t1(the same thing as teching for sovs) to get grens at all in the first place. Just try not to tech/place buiding and get 5 man grens, You can't OMG what an insight.

T4 tech requirements mean nothing as you get it eventually. After that how do you justify less costly unit out performing another. Because the games gonna reach a point where every player has access to all tech and only resources will be spent on unit and upgrades. What justification does tech requirement have then of less costly units out performing more costly one. There isn't any other wise OST t4 units would be priced lower Since they come later than all other vehicles but that wouldn't make sense in end game(or even post tech game)
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Katitof
11 Mar 2021, 12:29 PM
#26
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Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Mar 2021, 12:27 PMZeroZeroNi
T4 tech requirements mean nothing as you get it eventually.

Lets lock LMG42 behind T3 and you'll eventually learn that it does mean something.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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ZeroZeroNi
11 Mar 2021, 12:30 PM
#27
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Posts: 1563

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Mar 2021, 12:29 PMKatitof

Lets lock LMG42 behind T3 and you'll eventually learn that it does mean something.

M8 if you don't know the context this belongs to don't reply.
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Katitof
11 Mar 2021, 12:33 PM
#28
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jump backJump back to quoted post11 Mar 2021, 12:30 PMZeroZeroNi

M8 if you don't know the context this belongs to don't reply.

You say timing doesn't impact or justify performance.
I'm pointing out you're DEAD WRONG.

Why do you think OKW is getting all these changes for obers with schwerer tech?
Why do you think some things are having just CP or tier changed instead of performance?

On top of that you completely ignore and disregard rather wide disparity of performance of supporting units between the factions.

Ost will never have completely independent mainline inf, doctrinal or otherwise, unless we limit their access to snipers and access and potency of HMG42.

You're arguing your point without having an understanding on WHY things are like they are.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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ZeroZeroNi
11 Mar 2021, 12:36 PM
#29
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Posts: 1563

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Mar 2021, 12:33 PMKatitof

You say timing doesn't impact or justify performance.
I'm pointing out you're DEAD WRONG.

OK then why t34/76 the shittiest medium despite coming at the same time as p4 which is slightly later than croms/shermans??? Justify that first oh great Katiof one.
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Katitof
11 Mar 2021, 12:40 PM
#30
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jump backJump back to quoted post11 Mar 2021, 12:36 PMZeroZeroNi

OK then why t34/76 the shittiest medium despite coming at the same time as p4 which is slightly later than croms/shermans??? Justify that first oh great Katiof one.

Because this is not 1v1 void null micro battle simulator.
Because you'll get 2nd T34 much faster then you would get 2nd P4.
Because T-70 will make sure they don't arrive at the same time.
Because SU-85 backing it up will make up for that P4 stat advantage, even if P4 will be backed by StuG.
Because soviets will have the tools to effectively support that T34 before it and P4 arrives via ZiS, SU-76 or newely made mid to late game viable AT penals.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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ZeroZeroNi
11 Mar 2021, 12:49 PM
#31
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Posts: 1563

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Mar 2021, 12:40 PMKatitof

Because this is not 1v1 void null micro battle simulator.
Because you'll get 2nd T34 much faster then you would get 2nd P4.
Because T-70 will make sure they don't arrive at the same time.
Because SU-85 backing it up will make up for that P4 stat advantage, even if P4 will be backed by StuG.
Because soviets will have the tools to effectively support that T34 before it and P4 arrives via ZiS, SU-76 or newely made mid to late game viable AT penals.

Tell be this the situation you just described how does teching delay factor into this. It's pretty evident that your talking abut a point were both parties are fully teched. Tell in this situation what significance teching requirements have now.
Don't forget the argument.
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Katitof
11 Mar 2021, 12:52 PM
#32
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jump backJump back to quoted post11 Mar 2021, 12:49 PMZeroZeroNi

Tell be this the situation you just described how does teching delay factor into this. It's pretty evident that your talking abut a point were both parties are fully teched. Tell in this situation what significance teching requirements have now.
Don't forget the argument.

You talk about... delaying what here actually?
Because there is a difference if you get 7th man con at T3 for extra cost or couple of minutes later at T4.

Do I need to explain to you performance difference of upgraded infantry vs unupgraded infantry in timing when there are tanks on the filed vs when there are not?

I feel like you're asking me to explain to you basic RTS mechanics here, because you most certainly have a hard time understanding something here.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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ZeroZeroNi
11 Mar 2021, 13:02 PM
#33
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Posts: 1563

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Mar 2021, 12:52 PMKatitof

You talk about... delaying what here actually?
Do I need to explain to you performance difference of upgraded infantry vs unupgraded infantry in timing when there are tanks on the filed vs when there are not?

But what about in late game when you loose an unit(your bound to it's late game after all)??? what then how do you justify a 270mp+60mu unit being worse than a 258mp+50mu unit(remember this is what me and the other dude is talking about).


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Katitof
11 Mar 2021, 13:07 PM
#34
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jump backJump back to quoted post11 Mar 2021, 13:02 PMZeroZeroNi

But what about in late game when you loose an unit(your bound to it's late game after all)??? what then how do you justify a 270mp+60mu unit being worse than a 258mp+50mu unit(remember this is what me and the other dude is talking about).

Why did you rebuild a unit that is past its window of opportunity with full knowledge that there is a likely vetted unit that counters it? And if you really need that unit, why didn't you supported it with much stronger HMG, like I've shown you in T34 vs P4 example?
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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ZeroZeroNi
11 Mar 2021, 13:13 PM
#35
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Posts: 1563

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Mar 2021, 13:07 PMKatitof

Why did you rebuild a unit that is past its window of opportunity with full knowledge that there is a likely vetted unit that counters it?

Are you high. Are you srsly saying that infantry Fking infantry isn't necessary at all points of the game. Like you berated me on basic RTS mechanics and your blabbering something soo noobish.


And if you really need that unit, why didn't you supported it with much stronger HMG, like I've shown you in T34 vs P4 example?

I mean SU85 is a lot stronger than a stug so should the p4 be less expensive compared to t34/76 now. Is that what you are saying.
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Katitof
11 Mar 2021, 13:26 PM
#36
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jump backJump back to quoted post11 Mar 2021, 13:13 PMZeroZeroNi

Are you high. Are you srsly saying that infantry Fking infantry isn't necessary at all points of the game. Like you berated me on basic RTS mechanics and your blabbering something soo noobish.

Pios cap just as well as grens in late game and its ostwind/brummbar/pwerfer who do the infantry killing heavy lifting, not grens, unless you actually believe grens should stand up to fully upgraded tommies or rifles too, in which case, you're delusional. Ost late game was ALWAYS about vehicles, never about infantry.

There is a reason why in place of grens, pios are being rebuilt.

I honestly didn't expected I would need to teach a wehraboo the very basics of playing the ost faction, but here we are.

I mean SU85 is a lot stronger than a stug so should the p4 be less expensive compared to t34/76 now. Is that what you are saying.

You clearly did not understood what I said, so I'll leave you here with opportunity to re-read it as many times as you need for it to sink in.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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ZeroZeroNi
11 Mar 2021, 14:09 PM
#37
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Mar 2021, 13:26 PMKatitof

Pios cap just as well as grens in late game and its ostwind/brummbar/pwerfer who do the infantry killing heavy lifting, not grens, unless you actually believe grens should stand up to fully upgraded tommies or rifles too, in which case, you're delusional. Ost late game was ALWAYS about vehicles, never about infantry.

There is a reason why in place of grens, pios are being rebuilt.

I honestly didn't expected I would need to teach a wehraboo the very basics of playing the ost faction, but here we are.

I feel like what Hannibal said about you maybe correct "What game are you playing, it sure isn't coh2" paraphrasing but still the jist is there.


You clearly did not understood what I said, so I'll leave you here with opportunity to re-read it as many times as you need for it to sink in.
Dude and it's very evident you didn't understand what we(not you but the other guy) were talking about, I suggest you intern heed you own advice.
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Sp33dSnake
11 Mar 2021, 18:47 PM
#38
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Posts: 149

A total rework of the commander might be in order. Okay I get it; adding a Sniper G43 was too much.

It was happily one of my core commanders I used, and for good reason.

How about this?

2 - CP
Breakthrough Equipment

2 - CP
Stormtroopers

2 - CP
Veteran Squad Leaders (45 munitions)

4 man grens are now upgraded to a 5th man with a standard Kar 98. Veteran Squad Leaders inspire their man to move faster as well as be able to concentrate their fire more accurately.

-VSL Grens now get Sprint

-VSL Grens now get 'Target Them!'

-VSL Grens now get Smoke Grenade

Panzergrens no longer are affected due to already getting smoke grenades from Breakthrough Equipment.

6 CP - Assault And Hold

10 CP - Frag Bomb
Playercard of Sp33dSnake

1v1: P2v2: P3v3: None4v4: None
1v1: P2v2: P3v3: None4v4: None
1v1: P2v2: P3v3: None4v4: None
1v1: P2v2: P3v3: P4v4: None


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Katitof
11 Mar 2021, 20:20 PM
#39
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Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Mar 2021, 14:09 PMZeroZeroNi

I feel like what Hannibal said about you maybe correct "What game are you playing, it sure isn't coh2" paraphrasing but still the jist is there.

I can find a dozen posts from every single member of community with exception of mod team members where that would be equally applicable.

Dude and it's very evident you didn't understand what we(not you but the other guy) were talking about, I suggest you intern heed you own advice.

I wasn't responding to "other guy", I was responding to the guy I quoted and his statements, which is you.

And the other guy was still correct, you don't need to tech up to accumulate CPs, they come at no extra cost, teching accelerates them, but isn't required to get them.

Not sure what your problem here is.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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EtherealDragon
12 Mar 2021, 00:09 AM
#40
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Posts: 1890 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Mar 2021, 07:14 AMZeroZeroNi

can I see your tests plz, cause i'm finding this a little hard to believe.


I'll admit that I'm not tech savvy enough to screenshot or record video in game. But it's pretty straightforward looking at stats. I assume you will concede that stock Grens generally beat stock Cons at longer ranges? So if each upgrade adds 1 extra model then that means there is no change in their relationship. Add in the fact that VSL gives them a cooldown bonus still and STG (superior to G43 at longer ranges) then they still win at longer ranges assuming no user error. They just simply don't win *as* hard as LMG grens.
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