Sandbags nerfed enough? Nope

Some ideas

- Disable capture when building for all units (would also apply to wires and mines)

- Add a cost to sandbag, manpower or munition.

- Put sandbag behind vet1 or tech

Some ideas

- Disable capture when building for all units (would also apply to wires and mines)

i really like this idea

+100000000000000000000000000000000

Do it.

This.

If sandbags were removed from mainline infantry the balance would go completely out of control and require several patches to get right again. Which is just totally unrealistic at this point of COH2's life span.


sandbags USED to be restricted heavily. it would feel out of control becvause the mta is castle for every man, but it would instead be a return to what was intended.


You can't just remove sandbags from certain factions relying on them. Imagine playing UKF vs Ostheer without sandbags it would be incredibly hard/next to impossible to compete. Same goes for Conscripts without sandbags or even Volks. All of these factions are balanced around having sandbags available for them.

tommies are basically grens but better in every way except price so im not sure how it would be impossible to play against...
whats more, no faction really "relies" on sandbags anymore, except ost who has nearly exclusivley 4 man squads and defensive core infantry, whom ironically enough lack sandbags on their mainline and are the only faction as such....
volks could the the needed buff if it wasnt compounded by every engagment with them being behind sandbags also. something more inline with their newer design.

OKW Sturms are already overtasked as it is if they had to build sandbags as well it would completely ruin the whole faction's early game and would be totally unfair compared to factions like Soviets or Ostheer that can get cheap T0 engineer units.

the wouldnt HAVE to build sandbags, but basically thats the point... for sandbags t NOT be everywhere and ion every engagement, for hunkering down to be an active thought not an automatic passive thing. but i agree its a hell of a thing for a faction designed after Germanys last offensive to be less able to bunker down than other factions....

It would also be yet another step into making all factions play the same which just makes the game boring.

i would argue the current system does the exactly that already... every point having sandbags which every battle revolves around. less hard points means more maneuvering and vying for the natural strong points, and flushing the enemy out of them, like it was with vanilla coh. more dynamic and less static.

Thing is, while nerf was alight, it really effects sandbags during first few mins. After that you can still get them everywhere, by simply using 2 squads instead of one.

I personally think that sandbags should require maintaining.
They should:
1) Take notisable damage from small-arms, so every squad would be able to potentially destoy them by focus fire.
2) Outright be destoyed by AT guns and tanks.
3) Mortars and inderect fire units aswell should deal more damage to them.
4) Grenades should also do significant damage to them.
5) They should requare more space to be build, in other words you shouldnt be able to deny opponent from using your sandbags by building it close to the point.
6) Amount of squads that can build 1 sandbag should be restricted to 1

Problem with sandbags lies not in their existance in a first place, but because they are way to hard to destoy for what they are providing and how easy it is to get and spam them.

Ideally? Yes. Practically? Too many ripple effects on balance that we won't be able to solve in one patch that may be the last.

Jesus are we really saying that factions dont work without having quickly buildable sandbags on mainline inf? That is where everyone sits? Really? The only faction that MIGHT need sandbags on mainline inf (building at a snails pace) is OKW volks and you likely could get away with them not having them TBH, wouldnt take long to figure out which way to go with a concerted effort.

If every faction loses them they have to actually use the map and they each lose the same asset, did people forget the map still exists without sandbags? Did we forget about engineers?

If Relic wont get rid of them than thats one thing but the idea that the balance team doesnt see the issues with sandbags, even after the patch, is beyond me. The change didnt solve the obvious problem we had before the patch with sandbags. It didnt even put a dent in it.

Do either:

1. +50% or double sandbag build time on mainline inf

Or

2. Remove sandbags from mainline inf entirely

...in both cases keep engineers build time normal

Honestly the more I think about it the more I think they should just be removed from mainline inf, testing will reveal which works best.

There have also been some good ideas in this thread to reduce sandbag spam generally.

i would argue the current system does the exactly that already... every point having sandbags which every battle revolves around. less hard points means more maneuvering and vying for the natural strong points, and flushing the enemy out of them, like it was with vanilla coh. more dynamic and less static.

No because sandbags are not available in the same way:

Ostheer: Pioneers can build them but Grens can not
OKW: Sturms can not build them but Volks can
Soviets: Engineers can not build them but Cons can, Penals again can not
USF: No sandbags non-doctrinally but tank traps that also give green cover
UKF: Only mainline can build them

With this proposed change every faction would have sandbags available for their engineer/builder unit and thus making all factions even more similar and boring.

Jesus are we really saying that factions dont work without having quickly buildable sandbags on mainline inf? That is where everyone sits? Really? The only faction that MIGHT need sandbags on mainline inf (building at a snails pace) is OKW volks and you likely could get away with them not having them TBH, wouldnt take long to figure out which way to go with a concerted effort.

If every faction loses them they have to actually use the map and they each lose the same asset, did people forget the map still exists without sandbags? Did we forget about engineers?

If Relic wont get rid of them than thats one thing but the idea that the balance team doesnt see the issues with sandbags, even after the patch, is beyond me. The change didnt solve the obvious problem we had before the patch with sandbags. It didnt even put a dent in it.

Do either:

1. +50% or double sandbag build time on mainline inf

Or

2. Remove sandbags from mainline inf entirely

...in both cases keep engineers build time normal

Honestly the more I think about it the more I think they should just be removed from mainline inf, testing will reveal which works best.

There have also been some good ideas in this thread to reduce sandbag spam generally.

Removing them from mainlines and instead giving them to Engineer units might warrant a few changes:

A: The Brit starting unit would probably want to be sappers, so they're still on level ground with all the other factions regarding cover (Though not starting with a Section would be a nerf to Brits. Perhaps instead they could start with the Officer (with rifles), who could also build cover? I'm not sure; Brits are an odd case).

B: OKW really would either need an auxiliary engineer unit (Luftwaffe ground forces?), or you'd need to be able to build a gimped version of Sturmpioneers to supplement their existing one, or as a third option; Sturms would need to be able to erect Sandbags absurdly quickly (This third option would be pretty AIDS)... as otherwise OKW would go from one of the factions with the greatest access to Sandbags, to the faction with undeniably the least access.

There's also the tweaking necessary for the various mainlines, as three of them are ostensibly designed with the fact they can construct cover in mind. As Sanders says, this is a surprisingly complex issue.

Incidentally: Why do a lot of the people agreeing with the idea that mainlines shouldn't have sandbags then go on to state that Conscripts should keep theirs? Even more confusingly, why do others then state that UKF should keep THEIRS? All they're suggesting, at that point, is a nerf to OKW for some reason.


This'd be a lot easier to fix if there were another type of cover in-between light and heavy that you could just make Sandbags into being. That might help sidestep the issue entirely.

If every faction loses them they have to actually use the map and they each lose the same asset, did people forget the map still exists without sandbags? Did we forget about engineers?

If every faction loses them, then not every faction loses an equal amount of power level. Ostheer with its support heavy play wouldn't be affected much. Soviet T1 would get a big boost. Especially OKW would take a huge hit because Volks without cover don't stand a chance against Rifles and IS and Sturmpioneers are already overburdened, etc. It would take a big amount of tweaking (something that can not be done in one patch) to get every faction up to scratch again.

And on top of potentially (/likely) creating major balance issues (adjusting mainline power level always has big implications), it would also require to re-evaluate all maps, especially teamgames maps, because there's significant lack of cover on certain flags that once again would make it incredibly hard for a faction like OKW to push or hold territory.


I don't mind the current situation anyway. I think only early game spam was a problem, and that has been nerfed because now you need to sacrifice map control for it. Does the nerf need to be tweaked more (further increase build time)? Perhaps, we'll see in the coming weeks/months. We can always slap a few more seconds onto it. Mid to late game it shouldn't be a problem as factions get access to a variety of tools (flamers, indirect, ATGs, tanks, etc.) to deal with them.

I do think it would've been better if Relic had not given sandbags to mainlines but foxholes (medium cover) instead, and leave sandbags to engineers, and then build the entire faction/mainline infantry balance around that, but it's too late to radically change it now.

No because sandbags are not available in the same way:

Ostheer: Pioneers can build them but Grens can not
OKW: Sturms can not build them but Volks can
Soviets: Engineers can not build them but Cons can, Penals again can not
USF: No sandbags non-doctrinally but tank traps that also give green cover
UKF: Only mainline can build them

With this proposed change every faction would have sandbags available for their engineer/builder unit and thus making all factions even more similar and boring.

Its' weird, isnt it? It sort of makes sense that "Engineers" would be the ones to build sandbags for a faction, but only a single faction's engineer unit even builds them at the moment. (REs and their Tank Traps aren't quite the same)

If every faction loses them, then not every faction loses an equal amount of power level. Ostheer with its support heavy play wouldn't be affected much. Soviet T1 would get a big boost. OKW would become significantly worse because Volks without cover don't stand a chance against Rifles and IS and Sturmpioneers are already overburdened, etc. It would take a big amount of tweaking (something that can not be done in one patch) to get every faction up to scratch again.

And on top of potentially (/likely) creating major balance issues (adjusting mainline power level always has big implications), it would also require to re-evaluate all maps, especially teamgames maps, because there's significant lack of cover on certain flags that once again would make it incredibly hard for a faction like OKW to push or hold territory.


I don't mind the current situation anyway. I think only early game spam was a problem, and that has been nerfed because now you need to sacrifice map control for it. Mid to late game it shouldn't be a problem as factions get access to a variety of tools (flamers, indirect, ATGs, tanks, etc.) to deal with them.

Totally agree. I can see why people think sandbag spam is bad but removing them is going to have so many consequences it is just not worth it. Both in terms of balance as well as map design. I feel like this is also mostly a 1v1 problem and certain people totally ignore that other game modes exist as well. Especially in 3v3 and 4v4 not having sandbags to soft-counter early game MG spam seems a very bad idea.

Totally agree. I can see why people think sandbag spam is bad but removing them is going to have so many consequences it is just not worth it. Both in terms of balance as well as map design. I feel like this is also mostly a 1v1 problem and certain people totally ignore that other game modes exist as well. Especially in 3v3 and 4v4 not having sandbags to soft-counter early game MG spam seems a very bad idea.

To be fair, "MG spam" in team modes is normally dealt with through a liberal application of concentrated Mortars, isnt it?

TD:LR OKW and Volks are trash, therefore we need to keep sandbags on mainline inf.

I mean, its not like OKW vs UKF is a pure cancer match up still. Easier against USF but quite painfull.

To be fair, "MG spam" in team modes is normally dealt with through a liberal application of concentrated Mortars, isnt it?

Indirect fire also helps but imagine a map like Redball Express without green cover against double MG42 Ostheer players. The green cover helps (at least as long as units are correctly positioned) mitigate suppression for a while. That's why I think this whining about sandbags is mostly a 1v1 thing as MGs aren't that strong there.

First of all, id like to see some tournaments play out with the current sandbag system.

If its still cinsidered a problem, id like to suggest that sandbags can only be build in captured territory just like trenches

If its still cinsidered a problem, id like to suggest that sandbags can only be build in captured territory just like trenches

I think making building sandbags pause/cancel capturing is a much more elegant solution than that, honestly. They're /purely/ a defensive tool if you can only build them in owned territory, whereas you can use them "offensively" if you can build them anywhere.

I know calling sandbags an "offensive" tool in any respect is a strange thing to do, but I think it does open more interesting gameplay decisions up...

I think making building sandbags pause/cancel capturing is a much more elegant solution than that

I actually like this suggestion as well. Not sure if it's possible to code it though. CreativeName's idea sounds like it could work out well too. Both are much better solutions than just removing them from the game.

I actually like this suggestion as well. Not sure if it's possible to code it though. CreativeName's idea sounds like it could work out well too. Both are much better solutions than just removing them from the game.

Its already possible for abilities to modify whether an unit is able to capture or not (Secure mode), so I think its entirely possible for this to be coded. The only issue is whether it might introduce strange bugs.

it's too late to radically change it now.

This was what I suspected the situation is.

In the future, given all youve pointed out, perhaps double the build time or +50% build time to sandbags as a compromise, the current nerf just isnt enough. I think no sandbags on mainline inf would def be better meduim term for this game but, in leu of that, consider increasing build time.

thanks for chiming in Sander, appreciate it

No because sandbags are not available in the same way:

Ostheer: Pioneers can build them but Grens can not
OKW: Sturms can not build them but Volks can
Soviets: Engineers can not build them but Cons can, Penals again can not
USF: No sandbags non-doctrinally but tank traps that also give green cover
UKF: Only mainline can build them

With this proposed change every faction would have sandbags available for their engineer/builder unit and thus making all factions even more similar and boring.

i disagree. requiring engineers would be better than it being on mainlines, because then you require a unit to fortify that isnt the most plentiful squad you are going to have on the field.
you dont REALLY see sandbag spam from ost BECAUSE you cant just slap one down with one of the 4 squads you have on hand to fight and clear garrisons and snare like okw can.
sandbags wernt really an issue when soviet could only make em ei5ther, becasue cons were no your main fighting force, thusly you were not able to saturate the map.

theres nobody up in arms about how engineers lay mines and how that mkes the game boring, and like mines, different engieeers could have different fortifications.

soviet have the bags they have
ost keeps their bags as is (or rework bunkers...)
usf (while they dont have baqgs, have green cover tank traps which are almost the same, just a bit jankier to use)
brits could lose the bags all together and just use trenches and okw, probably give them normal bags like ost but built quicker unless there are alternatives.