Sandbags nerfed enough? Nope

Honestly, a mod should be made w no sandbags and tests should be run with mainline inf having no sandbags, see how the games feel, ill bet people will be surprised at how much better it would be

Just because you have problems playing vs sandbags, does not mean everyone does. I quite like playing with/vs sandbags and the illusion of safety that makes it easy to flank.

Just because you have problems playing vs sandbags, does not mean everyone does. I quite like playing with/vs sandbags and the illusion of safety that makes it easy to flank.

I sympathize with your perspective that maybe I am struggling somehow versing sandbag spam. I often have people critique a map based on their feelings after losing instead of objective terchnical information. Happily that is not the case here.

To be clear, I've been playing COH since 2006, Ive been designing competitive maps in COH for 15 years now, im watching the fabric of the game being comprimised by subpar design approaches such as the sandbag spam that is being discussed here. Its relatively easy to test and confirm or deny the claim im making and either try an approach ive outlined in post 1. It would also be desirable to test one or a combination of ideas expressed here by others, there are many good ideas in this thread to mitigate the sandbag spam overall. Your completley ignoring the rest of the map if your happy with the current state of the sandbag spam.

Its a no brainer to experiment and possibly make the game better for everyone.

But pretending its a bad idea to experiment because of a preconceived, unverified notion that "it just wont work" or "its hard to know what will happen" doesnt even begin make sense.

I sympathize with your perspective that maybe I am struggling somehow versing sandbag spam. I often have people critique a map based on their feelings after losing instead of objective terchnical information. Happily that is not the case here.

To be clear, I've been playing COH since 2006, Ive been designing competitive maps in COH for 15 years now, im watching the fabric of the game being comprimised by subpar design approaches such as the sandbag spam that is being discussed here. Its relatively easy to test and confirm or deny the claim im making and either try an approach ive outlined in post 1. It would also be desirable to test one or a combination of ideas expressed here by others, there are many good ideas in this thread to mitigate the sandbag spam overall. Your completley ignoring the rest of the map if your happy with the current state of the sandbag spam.

Its a no brainer to experiment and possibly make the game better for everyone.

But pretending its a bad idea to experiment because of a preconceived, unverified notion that "it just wont work" or "its hard to know what will happen" doesnt even begin make sense.

Best map there is: Whiteball express
Worst map: Redball

Everything else is in between (not counting winter maps, those are FPS killers in team games)
Sandbags are fine, in every scenario on every map. If the enemy is spamming sandbags, that means they should not be having a lot of map control and that some key buildings can be manned by you. Furthermore, the biggest drawback of sandbags is the fact that this game utilizes direction. Almost every player I've played against (from rank top 10 to rank infinity and beyond, 3v3 only), just mindless places MGs behind them which can be exploited.
Truth be told, some maps, due to the design, can exploit sandbags beyond their usual usefulness. Normal sandbags, not those huge monstrosities on conscripts. Some maps do favor sandbag spam as there are no avenues of flank/alternate attack.

In 1v1, sandbags will never be the problem on normal maps. In 1v1 a map does not have to be superb and well designed to eliminate sandbag problem. Population and population density takes care of that.

In 2v2, some maps are sandbag prone... those lane-y ones.

3v3 is on the doorstep to the clusterfuck that is 4v4. Basically it's 1v1 on VP lanes. Sandbags do come in handy but usually take too long to place to be effective. There you will almost certainly fight first on the frontline. And if you do win engagements and force retreats you have 2 choices: Push deeper and deny resources or place sandbags and hope for no mortars/smoke. Again, it balances itself out.

4v4: Not gonna comment. Horrible mode for sadistic people hellbent on destroying planet Earth

I sympathize with your perspective that maybe I am struggling somehow versing sandbag spam. I often have people critique a map based on their feelings after losing instead of objective terchnical information. Happily that is not the case here.

To be clear, I've been playing COH since 2006, Ive been designing competitive maps in COH for 15 years now, im watching the fabric of the game being comprimised by subpar design approaches such as the sandbag spam that is being discussed here. Its relatively easy to test and confirm or deny the claim im making and either try an approach ive outlined in post 1. It would also be desirable to test one or a combination of ideas expressed here by others, there are many good ideas in this thread to mitigate the sandbag spam overall. Your completley ignoring the rest of the map if your happy with the current state of the sandbag spam.

Its a no brainer to experiment and possibly make the game better for everyone.

But pretending its a bad idea to experiment because of a preconceived, unverified notion that "it just wont work" or "its hard to know what will happen" doesnt even begin make sense.

I think that part of the issue with Sandbags in the past has been how difficult it is to actually do something about them when they ARE put down. Up until this recent patch, you couldn't reliably wire them off in a lot of cases, due to the cover-position bleedthrough, so it took more effort to "counter" a sandbag you pushed an unit off of than it took to put it up in the first place.

Do you think the recent Wire change has helped at all here, or am i overestimating how much of an impact being able to easily deny the sandbags actually is?

...
Cheers

Since the wire sandbags has been brought up in connection with map I would like to bring up the ability "destroy cover" and hear your opinion in connection to maps.

I appreciate everyones questions

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Protos Angelus,

Spamming sandbags doesnt have anything to do with map control. Consider the opening of the game, when your capping you can build sandbags at the same rate you cap, so the time it takes to cap the map is hardely affected by sandbagsm, especially when it counts (early game). And because almost all mainline inf can do this they are built as often as possible because of the advantage it gives you, this also has the side effect that players essentially ignore most of the map when the early game is happening, this leads to bland early game scenarios and uninspired engagements that are essentially the same regardless of the map. <---this last point is perhaps the most important one

Players wire off a sandbag to make it asymmetrically in their favor under ideal conditions but...because cap flags are impasse objects, every sandbag is (no surprise) built such that you dont even need to wire the front of your bag to prevent your opponant from using it. Normally players should use the natural yellow cover to acheive this but the way the flags work in COH2 breaks this element.

There are other issues with the current sandbag meta but ill stop there.

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Vipper,

The ability to destroy sandbags with AT guns or other heavy fire is the only reason any of this works in any capacity. The ability to destroy sandbags should be retained even if only engineers or doctrinal abilities can build sandbags. The main point is the current design leads to bland early game scenarios and uninspired engagements that are essentially the same regardless of the map. Ignoring the design of the map turns what should be a colorful match into a greyed out repetitive task list that shallows the tactical depth that COH established in 2006.

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Pip,

The recent wire change does help some, but the fact that mainline inf are more numerous and engineers are fewer in number the wire to sandbag ratio will still be skewed towards too many of them being placed. In addition even though the wiring fix is quite clever (well done whoever came up with that) it doesnt solve the problem of the flags acting as impasse objects and players capping while building sandbags in an asymmetric way on every point that is encountered. There is no incentive for players to do anything BUT build as many sandbags in their favor as possible, which exaserbates all the problems ive mentioned above.

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To Everyone,

To be clear, this isnt a debate weather or not sandbags in their current state are awful and can be improved on or they might be fine the way they are. Players essentially ignore most of the map when the early game is happening, this leads to bland early game scenarios and uninspired engagements that are essentially the same regardless of the map. It is a fact, not an opinion, that current sandbag meta is much worse now than it should be. The time increase was nice I guess? But it didnt actually change anything from a boots on the ground perspective.

And to repeat: Its a no brainer to experiment and possibly make the game better for everyone. Pretending its a bad idea to experiment because of a preconceived, unverified notion that "it just wont work" or "its hard to know what will happen" doesnt even begin make sense.

Experiments solve problems, not opinions.

Cheers

Vipper,

The ability to destroy sandbags with AT guns or other heavy fire is the only reason any of this works in any capacity. The ability to destroy sandbags should be retained even if only engineers or doctrinal abilities can build sandbags. The main point is the current design leads to bland early game scenarios and uninspired engagements that are essentially the same regardless of the map. Ignoring the design of the map turns what should be a colorful match into a greyed out repetitive task list that shallows the tactical depth that COH established in 2006.

I was referring to the ability "destroy cover" some engineer units have that apart from blowing up cover can also blow up vision/shot blockers and thus can manipulate map design.

I was referring to the ability "destroy cover" some engineer units have that apart from blowing up cover can also blow up vision/shot blockers and thus can manipulate map design.

Understood, this ability breaks maps IMO. It limits what mappers can do from the perspective of having flexible design decisions because we cant really use anything that engineers can just destroy with this kind of ability. Its an aility that truly needs to be removed. This is also not a debate, its an unfortunate fact.

Not a single person that I'm aware of condiders the maps much, if at all, when considering faction design decisions. This is to no ones benefit.

SNIP

Perhaps part of the solution might like to be a change in the way Flags act with regards to building sandbags? Have them prevent sandbags from being built right up against them, forcing them to be built with space behind them that an opponent may use (If not wired). You're at the very least punished for mindlessly spamming sandbags in this conceptual version of the game.

I'm not certain how easy/possible it would be to change flags to prevent Sandbags (but not wire or mines, ideally) from being built around themselves... It's possible it's something that would have to be done on a map-by-map basis if the flags themselves can't be changed, and this isnt exactly all that quick a change to make (And would be inconsistent in custom maps made by mappers that don't know this "new" standard)

Obviously the ideal solution probably would be to have Sandbags only be built by Engineers, but as has already been discussed; this is a surprisingly in-depth and complex change to make due to various balance issues previously outlined, and some of these "hacky" fixes might be good as a stopgap at the very least.

Obviously the ideal solution probably would be to have Sandbags only be built by Engineers, but as has already been discussed; this is a surprisingly in-depth and complex change to make due to various balance issues previously outlined, and some of these "hacky" fixes might be good as a stopgap at the very least.

This remove Conscripts from game. And OKW sturms first on fuel flag behind sandbags?

Truly, this time last month I did not expect volks-behind-sandbags-OP and sandbags in general to be the focus of such attention.

Have some mercy on Sturmpios, they already have to carry OKW early game with 2-3 units worth of jobs.

This remove Conscripts from game. And OKW sturms first on fuel flag behind sandbags?

This remove Conscripts from game. And OKW sturms first on fuel flag behind sandbags?

This is why i said that "just give sandbags to engineers" isnt really the only thing you'd need to do, there are more balance concerns besides... Though those Sturms behind sandbags would be the single sandbagged unit in the entire OKW army, so while they'd take a long time to dislodge (Despite doing very little damage to you), you wouldn't be dealing with Volks digging in literally everywhere. Swings and roundabouts.

Conscripts are quality infantry regardless of having sandbags or not (Mostly in the late game), Volks are arguably the infantry hit hardest by a lack of sandbags due to them having to fight Rifles and Sections (and that they can't afford more than one Engineer).

There's... some merit in the thought. Sturms behind sandbags take absolutely forever to get rid of, as you can't close with them, and they have decent RA... its just they aren't really doing any damage in exchange, and its stopping them doing the fifty other things you want them to be doing at that time.

Understood, this ability breaks maps IMO. It limits what mappers can do from the perspective of having flexible design decisions because we cant really use anything that engineers can just destroy with this kind of ability. Its an aility that truly needs to be removed. This is also not a debate, its an unfortunate fact.

Not a single person that I'm aware of condiders the maps much, if at all, when considering faction design decisions. This is to no ones benefit.

As far as understand the ability was available to RO so that they can have an easier time to place emplacements.

For some bizarre reason the mod team made it available to other units although I did point out the issue at the time.

In your higher CD and MU cost while making available only to RO. E. would not be enough?

Is there are other solution that someone could mod for making emplacements easier to place?

As far as understand the ability was available to RO so that they can have an easier time to place emplacements.

For some bizarre reason the mod team made it available to other units although I did point out the issue at the time.

In your higher CD and MU cost while making available only to RO. E. would not be enough?

Is there are other solution that someone could mod for making emplacements easier to place?

If it's just to make Emplacements easier to put down, the ability would just need to not be able to kill Sight/shotblockers.

The fact that it can implies its intended to let you place Emplacements, but also to open sightlines for them to fire. I don't think there's any way for that not to be AIDS.

Not only did Coh2 remove the decision making between capturing a point and fighting in combat (Especially with support weapons), but Sandbag spam on mainlines also removed the decision between taking optimal cover and capturing a point. Without getting bogged down in the specific faction balance, I think it's pretty clear the current implementation of mass spam sandbags while capturing points is not good for the game. The build time increase was nice and prevents the spam in the early game capping of neutral strat points but doesn't really effect more important points with longer cap times or when an enemy point is being decaptured and captured.

Putting Sandbags only on Engineer type units would see sandbags less prevalent and create a lot more tactical depth around cover and capturing. Sandbags were accessible in Coh1 but they couldn't be spammed while capturing points so they were much less used and more tactical. Mass sandbag spam also makes Flamethrowers too important.

I can't tell if you watch/cast/play enough COH1, sandbag spam happens a lot in Wehrmarct and very crucial to prevent blindly Rifle hugging into Volks.

I always land a sandbag before capping vital points, make sure all 5 dudes of Volks being protecting when capping it. Also happens in Infantry Company, only one BAR Rifles squad with Sandbag able to buy more time before it was recapture.

And anyone said nasty Sandbag demo/goliath?

Back in COH2, this sandbag nerf screw up Brit Tommies a lot, without Green cover they are trash.

Understood, this ability breaks maps IMO. It limits what mappers can do from the perspective of having flexible design decisions because we cant really use anything that engineers can just destroy with this kind of ability. Its an aility that truly needs to be removed. This is also not a debate, its an unfortunate fact.

Not a single person that I'm aware of condiders the maps much, if at all, when considering faction design decisions. This is to no ones benefit.

If you guy even take that decent abilty away from Brit, I think I will never choose Brit again.
You can always did the same thing with tanks, ATG , screck/zooks, you won't like a shot blocker in front of your ATG / MG.

What if sandbag cost abit of manpower? Like just 20mp or something?