Sandbags nerfed enough? Nope

+100000000000000000000000000000000

Do it.

NO U.

Really, why not try it out in a tournament? (Sandbag removed from all main line, including doctrinal, and given to engineers)

NO U.

Really, why not try it out in a tournament? (Sandbag removed from all main line, including doctrinal, and given to engineers)

Sandbags next tournament! Hope there's not much money on the line for such a radical test.

Its already possible for abilities to modify whether an unit is able to capture or not (Secure mode), so I think its entirely possible for this to be coded. The only issue is whether it might introduce strange bugs.

It should not be a problem and it would be quite easy. Enable/Disable capture is under apply modifier in which under in_construction_action there as already the x2 multiplication received_accuarcy_modifier. I would expect to see very little bugs from this.

It should not be a problem and it would be quite easy. Enable/Disable capture is under apply modifier in which under in_construction_action there as already the x2 multiplication received_accuarcy_modifier. I would expect to see very little bugs from this.

my man!

I would propose either of the methods outlined in the initial post

my man!

I would propose either of the methods outlined in the initial post

For testing purposes, I have added in disable capture while building to my mod. As well as the other insanity I have been messing around with. I probably going to 're-release' my mod soon. I wish the tools were updated for which they have not for the past 6ish patches. So some stuff I either have to reimplement or do not touch them entirely, the latter is far too late.

Personally, I would say move sandbags in engies while various doctrines could add it back to main line such as Riflemen Field Defense. There are a lot of ways this can be adjusted. Did you know you can designate the max number of models can speed up production. The default is 8 and many keep the default. Example:
Two squads of conscripts which can be from 12-14 models. If both are task to build the same set of sand bags it will build at the same rate as 8 models rather than the effects of 12-14.

sbps (squad section) engineering section. Units can have different build rates as well though this is standardly default set to 1. Say if pioneers had a rate of 1.5 and are building a bunker, while grens with build rate of 1. The pioneer squad could build the bunker %50 faster or 20% faster with only 3 models.

how about no

To me the best ideas until now seen to be:
1- disable capture during construction;
2- can only construct on captured territory

Also since now the brits can make/call enginners since the start, they should be the ones to be able to make sandbags, would make for a more standard game across the Ostheer and brits, since IFs/Granadiers can construct the bunkers/trenchs, while their enginners make the sandbags.

And again while some may call standardization across factions boring you just need to look at a game like the original Age of empires 2, where most of the time you got the same exact units(even buildings) and abilities across all civs give or take a few, different tech and castle units, while i know it's a totally different premise between the 2 games i think nobody would call AoE2 boring because of it and in my opinion CoH2 could use some more of it(the standardization), especially when it comes to units which should fulfill the same role(mainline,elite,tanks,Etc.)abilities.

[...]

cool stuff! i think any of the two solutions you've outlined (build speed reduction, disabled capping) would be much better than outright removing sandbags from mainlines.

i was wondering if a third option, that is reducing the received accuracy and/or damage reduction bonus for sandbag cover only, would be possible from a modding perspective?
i guess something like this could be done via target tables, but maybe there is a simpler, less messy approach.

Ostheer is played around team weapons while OKW is not. Ostheer also has super early Pgrens which are way better than anything OKW can field in the early game.

Sturmpioneers aren't considerably worse than Panzergrenadiers though, and they're your starting unit. They're squishier and don't hit as hard, but I don't see why you couldn't use them.

Sturmpioneers aren't considerably worse than Panzergrenadiers though, and they're your starting unit. They're squishier and don't hit as hard, but I don't see why you couldn't use them.

Sturms are a lot worse than Panzergrenadiers, they have slightly better damage at absolute point-blank (sub-5 range), but their drop-off is a lot more severe, so they need to get a lot closer. Their RA is also significantly worse, which makes their having to get close even more of a hindrance. They also don't have Bundle Grenade... Stun is nice, but it's an utility, not a damage dealing tool. (There's also Combined Arms... but this isnt a constant thing)

This makes sense obviously, due to their /far/ earlier timing compared to Pgrens, and their better utility... But you can't really justify building more than one and trying to use them as a "real" combat unit past the first couple minutes, especially since they have other shit they need to do, while Pgrens have no job except "kill guy". Sturms are also supporting Volksgrenadiers, whereas Pgrens are supporting the much better Grenadiers (And the MG42), so they're kinda carrying a heavier weight which compounds all this.

Sturms are great, and the OKW early game would be pretty much impossible without them, but they're not really comparable to Pgrens.

cool stuff! i think any of the two solutions you've outlined (build speed reduction, disabled capping) would be much better than outright removing sandbags from mainlines.

i was wondering if a third option, that is reducing the received accuracy and/or damage reduction bonus for sandbag cover only, would be possible from a modding perspective?
i guess something like this could be done via target tables, but maybe there is a simpler, less messy approach.

There are a lot of unused cover types which could be utilized, also it would of course means adding this interaction with every single weapon.

Aura's and Near Entities would not provide directional cover. Crits could be designated between frontal and rear of entity, assuming infantry even have rear armor, but that would make side shot very unknown.

Target Tables are likely the only way, easy but time consuming.

UI would be another problem. Would green be incorrect? Would prebuilt map sandbags count? It would probably be best if sandbags remain heavy cover.

There are a lot of unused cover types which could be utilized, also it would of course means adding this interaction with every single weapon.

Aura's and Near Entities would not provide directional cover. Crits could be designated between frontal and rear of entity, assuming infantry even have rear armor, but that would make side shot very unknown.

Target Tables are likely the only way, easy but time consuming.

UI would be another problem. Would green be incorrect? Would prebuilt map sandbags count? It would probably be best if sandbags remain heavy cover.

The is the problem, really. It would be an optimal solution, but unfortunately;

A: A lot of extra work would need to be done.

B: There isnt an associated symbol/colour for another type of cover, and I don't think it's the sort of thing that can be added by the mod team. ("Blue" cover, maybe? Not that it matters... Maybe for CoH3)

Sturms are a lot worse than Panzergrenadiers, they have slightly better damage at absolute point-blank (sub-5 range), but their drop-off is a lot more severe, so they need to get a lot closer. Their RA is also significantly worse, which makes their having to get close even more of a hindrance. They also don't have Bundle Grenade... Stun is nice, but it's an utility, not a damage dealing tool. (There's also Combined Arms... but this isnt a constant thing)

This makes sense obviously, due to their /far/ earlier timing compared to Pgrens, and their better utility... But you can't really justify building more than one and trying to use them as a "real" combat unit past the first couple minutes, especially since they have other shit they need to do, while Pgrens have no job except "kill guy". Sturms are also supporting Volksgrenadiers, whereas Pgrens are supporting the much better Grenadiers (And the MG42), so they're kinda carrying a heavier weight which compounds all this.

Sturms are great, and the OKW early game would be pretty much impossible without them, but they're not really comparable to Pgrens.

The thing that really makes sturms good is their vet. If you can get em to vet 2 before there's a saturation of targets, they get pretty tanky (-23% target size) putting them to 0.67 target size.
Vet 2 sturms are a slight bit more tanky than vet 1pgrens are at 0.68 target size.

I'm not a great player, but I frequently get vet 5 sturms in 2s, 3s and 4s (don't play 1s much anymore)
It hurts when you lose them, but they have a psychological effect on the enemy when they are on the front that can buy time for other units to position better.

They arnt pgrens, but they don't fall off as rapidly as people think either. Just as the enemy gets more firepower and vet they are less capable of soloing enemy squads like they can at the start of the match.

The thing that really makes sturms good is their vet. If you can get em to vet 2 before there's a saturation of targets, they get pretty tanky (-23% target size) putting them to 0.67 target size.
Vet 2 sturms are a slight bit more tanky than vet 1pgrens are at 0.68 target size.

This is fair, their veterancy requirements are fairly low, too. I always forget that Sturms get /all/ their survivability at Vet2, which is really rather nice.

Its just you won't have them fighting all too often after the initial engagements, as they have a lot they need to be doing after that. Wiring, repairing (Especially if you went a Kubel or Elite Armoured opening), Mining, Sweeping, and providing healing to your other infantry. Thankfully this last part will need to be done rather less with the new patch... but they do have the new duty of "vehicle deterrent". (Obviously they could do this before, but the Shreck upgrade was generally non-viable before it stopped being exclusive with the Minesweeper)

I'm not a great player, but I frequently get vet 5 sturms in 2s, 3s and 4s (don't play 1s much anymore)
It hurts when you lose them, but they have a psychological effect on the enemy when they are on the front that can buy time for other units to position better.

I agree, that's mostly what I use them for at the beginning of the game. Simply charging them at your enemy is a foolish thing to do, but quite common. They're better to be used as a threat/to force someone to make poor choices.

Keep your Sturms in green (Even Yellow) cover nearish your opponent, and move your Volksgrenadiers to try and flank them (Or give them time to build Sandbags somewhere useful, or even just pick away at range). Your opponent is forced to try and keep pressure/damage on the Sturms, in which case the Volks can position themselves relatively unmolested... or your opponent switches fire to the Volks, allowing your Sturms to move in. Far more effective than just trying to run Sturms towards an unit, as many people try to.

They arnt pgrens, but they don't fall off as rapidly as people think either. Just as the enemy gets more firepower and vet they are less capable of soloing enemy squads like they can at the start of the match.

Oh definitely, it's not that they fall off a cliff or anything, but what they offer in terms of combat ability isnt really worth their cost later on in the game, not in comparison to Pgrens. Starting off with the Bundle Grenade really helps Pgrens be a massive threat straight out of BP2.



I'll admit, I'm being rather too cynical in regards to Sturm performance, it's just that you still see a lot of "Wow Sturms OP" floating around, and it is a little tiresome.

OKW: Sturms can not build them but Volks can

With this proposed change every faction would have sandbags available for their engineer/builder unit and thus making all factions even more similar and boring.

B: OKW really would either need an auxiliary engineer unit (Luftwaffe ground forces?), or you'd need to be able to build a gimped version of Sturmpioneers to supplement their existing one, or as a third option; Sturms would need to be able to erect Sandbags absurdly quickly (This third option would be pretty AIDS)... as otherwise OKW would go from one of the factions with the greatest access to Sandbags, to the faction with undeniably the least access.

Kek
Let's give Sturms Panzerfausts and incendiary grenades too. Oh, and give them 5 men, and make the Feuersturm flamethrower upgrade compatible with the minesweeper.

Kek
Let's give Sturms Panzerfausts and incendiary grenades too. Oh, and give them 5 men, and make the Feuersturm flamethrower upgrade compatible with the minesweeper.

What is it you're trying to get at here? Simply changing the way Sandbags are assigned significantly changes the availability of Sandbags, rather than making them equally similar to access by each faction. This would be fine, but for two of those factions they go from having the (UKF and OKW, joint with SOV) best access, to having the worst.

Currently SOV, OKW, and UKF have the widest access to Sandbags, with them being on their mainline infantry. UKF even starts with their Mainline, rather than an engineer.

If only, and all, engineers have sandbags, OST and SOV have equal access, having cheap Engineer units (That must sometimes be used for teching), USF has "better" access, as their Engineer isnt needed for teching. UKF has worse initial access, but still has cheap engineers they can build from their base, whereas OKW's engineer unit is significantly more expensive, and costs more population than the others, and generally cannot be justified to be "doubled up" on. Unless OKW badly needs to have the worst access to sandbags for some reason, they need to be able to (viably) have a second unit to build them, to at least be on par with the other four factions.


What exactly are you trying to say with your stupid non-sequitur?

snip

I am making fun of the push to give Sturms sandbags. Might as well have them replace Volks altogether.

I would like to see sandbags on worker units rather than mainline infantry, as green cover is really strong early game, specially for okw and brits.

There are a lot of unused cover types which could be utilized, also it would of course means adding this interaction with every single weapon.

Aura's and Near Entities would not provide directional cover. Crits could be designated between frontal and rear of entity, assuming infantry even have rear armor, but that would make side shot very unknown.

Target Tables are likely the only way, easy but time consuming.

UI would be another problem. Would green be incorrect? Would prebuilt map sandbags count? It would probably be best if sandbags remain heavy cover.

thanks a lot for your insight on this.

a bummer that target tables seem to be the only way to make it happen. this would obviously be way too complicated to implement and likely open the floodgates for more unforseen bugs in the process.

In fact cons sandbags could be replaced on Hit the Dirt. While sandbags will be only for enges.