Upcoming Comander Update - Wishes

Does that mean you agree with me about the other seven aspects?

With some not with all but it would take too long to explain.

Again compare them to paras. Target size 1 vs 0.95 and at vet 0.71 vs 0.95.

Unless in your opinion paras bleed too much also.

Maybe a typo of you, but Paras have 0.71 at Vet3 plus out of combat healing at Vet2. I do think Paras are way better because of their great utility/versatility. Multiple weapon options (Thompson/Bar/Super Bazooka/LMG) + additonal abilities and dropping behind enemy lines or at your own frontline plus reinforcing on the field with Beacon. Paras are really good.

The combination is dirty if you consider that you get a unit close to SMG US Paras and vehicle for no MU cost and relatively low manpower.

It is true that is not very easy to get multiple squads.

About this one we share the same opinion.

With some not with all but it would take too long to explain.

All beginnings are difficult...

HMG42 doesn't disappear from the game past 10 minute, you still have access to it, its still best infantry support weapon and it still supports grens.

That's rich considering your conveniently forgetting soviets also have powerful support weapons as well.

That's my point, you baboon... they don't have powerful infantry to supplement them, they don't have strongest HMG behind their back, they don't have cheap mobile reinforcement, or best sniper in game behind them, they scale themselves according to cost for all of that.

And my point is, you baboon... the sections are on par with those powerful supplementary infantry and they are cheaper than those as well, they have cheap mobile healing if you didn't know.
Mr. Vickers: Am I perchance invisible my good sir
ok, soo I know your intelligent enough to realize where you are wrong about the sniper so don't really need to say it out loud do I.

You do know that VSL grens still have best HMG and sniper in game supporting them?

I'm guessing your the only one moron enough to play the game with only conscripts and nothing else. Cons have most versatile support weapons in the game backing them.

Face it dude your are wrong.

My wishlist for an upcoming patch:
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7. Have a look at CP requirements. Just one example: I don't get while PPSH for conscripts comes at 2 CPs while you get multiple doctrinal assault units at 0 CPs at other factions. As soviet you can have SVT for conscripts for 1 CP, PPSH for Penals at 1 CP and the perfect elite close combat unit at 2 CPs. Why do PPSH for conscripts even have a CP requirement at all, its not that they are free?
...

Some abilities should have their CP checked but I have to disagree with the example.

You are taking ability like the crate which is OP (and badly designed) and use it as benchmark for another ability that is fine. This lead to pure power creep.

PPsh has actually been buffed relevantly recently (was CP3 and PPsh was weaker) and was quite good when it was buffed.

Making PPsh CP 0 would be make it broken (and then people would ask to move SVT, G43, VSL... also in CP 0).

Tank hunting tactics. So we have 3 PTRS for Conscripts and 3 PTRS for Penals. Does it look like it's overkill? Let's replace the Conscripts PTRS with something else, there are many options: Bazookas, PPSh / Thompson, captured Shreck or PaK-40, Lend-Lease M10.

Tank hunting tactics. So we have 3 PTRS for Conscripts and 3 PTRS for Penals. Does it look like it's overkill? Let's replace the Conscripts PTRS with something else, there are many options: Bazookas, PPSh / Thompson, captured Shreck or PaK-40, Lend-Lease M10.

Cons do have camo and nade barrage tho.
Biggest problem of tank hunters was, its a doctrine that requires base army to stand on its own legs to function and right now it should be viable. Not meta, but most certainly viable on the level of NKVD rifles.

The IL-2 Sturmovik abilities need tweaking. The single strafe run from Advanced Warfare seems to be completely underpowered and useless, needs a substantial buff to damage and/or suppression.
The loitering Sturmovik is, if I recall correctly, right now at a dmg of 3, it got nerfed in 2018 from 5 to 3. I frequently play the Shock Motor Commander (his IL2 bombing got switched with IL2 sturmovik) and from what I observe, the ability rarely gets more than 1-2 models, even if the enemy does not even bother to remove his infantry blobs from the loitering area. The damage seems to be very inconsistent too. Once, I could observe an immediate 4-models-kill, but in like 95% of the time it does almost nothing. It costs a bunch of ammunition after all, so it should be similar in usefullness compared to other factions bombing/off-map plane attack abilities.

The IL-2 Sturmovik abilities need tweaking. The single strafe run from Advanced Warfare seems to be completely underpowered and useless, needs a substantial buff to damage and/or suppression.

Strafe see to be a bit late and it could become closer to Ostheer strafe

The loitering Sturmovik is, if I recall correctly, right now at a dmg of 3, it got nerfed in 2018 from 5 to 3. I frequently play the Shock Motor Commander (his IL2 bombing got switched with IL2 sturmovik) and from what I observe, the ability rarely gets more than 1-2 models, even if the enemy does not even bother to remove his infantry blobs from the loitering area. The damage seems to be very inconsistent too. Once, I could observe an immediate 4-models-kill, but in like 95% of the time it does almost nothing. It costs a bunch of ammunition after all, so it should be similar in usefullness compared to other factions bombing/off-map plane attack abilities.

Loiter was actually buffed not nerfed and it is strong. It not advisable to leave soft target in the area where the place operate.

Some abilities should have their CP checked but I have to disagree with the example.

You are taking ability like the crate which is OP (and badly designed) and use it as benchmark for another ability that is fine. This lead to pure power creep.

PPsh has actually been buffed relevantly recently (was CP3 and PPsh was weaker) and was quite good when it was buffed.

Making PPsh CP 0 would be make it broken (and then people would ask to move SVT, G43, VSL... also in CP 0).

USF, Ostheer and UKF all have 0 CP doctrinal Assault units which come with potent close combat weapons and with abilities like smoke or sprint. All of them have further upgrades to make them even more potent later on. For example Thompsons for UKF Assault Tommies.

PPsH upgrade is doctrinal too, since it cost munition you
a) can't just upgrade all cons right away
b) even at 0 CP you can't do it right at the start
c) it hampers your ability to use Oorah, molotov, At-grenade, lay mines, equip Penals with PTRS early on

In addition the upgrade makes your Cons practically useless at midrange since the 3 PPsH have such a harsh damage drop off, so Cons get close quarter by upgrading.
Last but not least it takes away the weapon slot, so you can't get to seven men. That are a lot of disadvantages.

If anything you could remove AT-grenade once upgraded. Compared to the more potent assault units which does not have a muniton cost and more damage output at close quarters I see no problem. Unless you want to make them CP depended too. Hitting the battlefield at 2 CPs means you can have Shock troops at the same time at multiple commanders. In fact at Soviet shock army you have both abilities in one commander...

USF, Ostheer and UKF all have 0 CP doctrinal Assault units which come with potent close combat weapons and with abilities like smoke or sprint. All of them have further upgrades to make them even more potent later on. For example Thompsons for UKF Assault Tommies.

As I said this is going to take a long time...

There is no real relevance to CP 0 smg infatry and conscript.
One is a weapon upgrade the other a call-in unit.

PPsH upgrade is doctrinal too, since it cost munition you

a) can't just upgrade all cons right away
b) even at 0 CP you can't do it right at the start
c) it hampers your ability to use Oorah, molotov, At-grenade, lay mines, equip Penals with PTRS early on

Yes one has to manage his resources and that goes for all factions.

In addition the upgrade makes your Cons practically useless at midrange since the 3 PPsH have such a harsh damage drop off, so Cons get close quarter by upgrading.

Most SMG have harsh damage drop off and that is according to weapon profiles which is a great idea.

PPsh conscripts retain more mid DPS that most other SMG troops because they still have 3 mosin.

Last but not least it takes away the weapon slot, so you can't get to seven men.

And that make perfect sense since 7 men ppsh would be broken.

That are a lot of disadvantages.

Yes they are but moving the upgrade to CP 0 solves none of them

If anything you could remove AT-grenade once upgraded. Compared to the more potent assault units which does not have a muniton cost and more damage output at close quarters I see no problem.

PPsh conscript are inline with other smgs troops for cost.

Unless you want to make them CP depended too. Hitting the battlefield at 2 CPs means you can have Shock troops at the same time at multiple commanders.

Again one is weapon upgrade the other a call in unit.

In fact at Soviet shock army you have both abilities in one commander...

That is a commander problem and not really relevant to the PPsh upgrade. One of the two could be replaced with something else.

As I said this is going to take a long time...

There is no real relevance to CP 0 smg infatry and conscript.
One is a weapon upgrade the other a call-in unit.

It wil take a long time for me too...

The relevance is: You are getting an assault unit in both cases as a result. One time as a call-in, another time buildable with upgrade. If you can't see a real relevance in the outcome here, I don't know what to say.

PPsH upgrade is doctrinal too, since it cost munition you

Yes one has to manage his resources and that goes for all factions.

With the "tiny" difference that the 0 CP assault call-ins don't have to pay munition for their SMGs.

Most SMG have harsh damage drop off and that is according to weapon profiles which is a great idea.

PPsh conscripts retain more mid DPS that most other SMG troops because they still have 3 mosin.

The damage drop off is surely a good thing, but that results in anybody using PPsH Cons at midrange to fight other infantry units beeing a fool with the exception of the few cases where they fight another CC unit while it closes in.

And that make perfect sense since 7 men ppsh would be broken.

I have no problem with PPsH and 7th man upgrade locking out each other, but the existence of the nondoc 7th man upgrade does make the PPsH upgrade even worse, because I do think 7man cons are the better choice for the late game.

Yes they are but moving the upgrade to CP 0 solves none of them

Then move CP0 assaukt troop call-ins to 1 or 2 CPs too.

PPsh conscript are inline with other smgs troops for cost.

They are worlds apart from other CC troops, I don't think their lower manpower cost justifies such a difference (and keep in mind they have to pay munition on top).

Again one is weapon upgrade the other a call in unit.

Still it is the same outcome, the only differnce is the way to get there = after initial purchase method you get a CC unit in both cases

That is a commander problem and not really relevant to the PPsh upgrade. One of the two could be replaced with something else.

Finally soemthing I can agree about. It makes no sense to have them next to each other in one commander.

-snip-

It might be worth mentioning that unlike all the 0cp callin assault troops, Conscripts do have a snare, and their host of other utilities. The only other "assault" troop with a snare is the MP40 volk upgrade (I think?).

I think comparing Conscripts to MP40 volks (In terms of their individual performance and how they perform relative to the rest of the faction/doctrine) is more relevant than trying to compare them to Assault Grenadiers, Assault Tommies, et al. They're a more similar "unit type".

If I'm honest, my experience is that PPSH conscripts are OK at what they do, but the general consensus does seem to be that they're weak. I think if they need to be buffed, perhaps it should be in some sort of utility sense, to differentiate them even further from Shock Troops. If they do get buffed in a combat sense instead, I think improving their individual PPSH would be a better idea than trying to give them any more, they currently have a vaguely defined niche as an assault troop that retains most of its damage as it loses models, but this isnt really fleshed out. (I still don't really understand what synergy Hit The Dirt is meant to have with them, incidentally)

Show Spoiler

It might be worth mentioning that unlike all the 0cp callin assault troops, Conscripts do have a snare, and their host of other utilities. The only other "assault" troop with a snare is the MP40 volk upgrade (I think?).

Because of that I auggested removing the snare with PPsH upgrade already, if that is the reason they are so medicore at combat. Oorah is not different to Sprint from Assgrens (many other CC units have smoke to close in), Molotov has to be purchased and is awfully slow to throw. To be fair every CC troop can have some sort of a more damage dealing grenade (stock or upgrade). So whats left and unique about PPsH Cons?

1) Building sandbags, but not for themselves anymore (you don't want to sit behind sandbags with CC troops)
2) Merge. Yes, that still exist.

Anything else?

7th man upgrade seems to be the better choice and you don't have to pick a commander for it.

Because of that I auggested removing the snare with PPsH upgrade already, if that is the reason they are so medicore at combat. Oorah is not different to Sprint from Assgrens (many other CC units have smoke to close in), Molotov has to be purchased and is awfully slow to throw. To be fair every CC troop can have some sort of a more damage dealing grenade (stock or upgrade). So whats left and unique about PPsH Cons?

1) Building sandbags, but not for themselves anymore (you don't want to sit behind sandbags with CC troops)
2) Merge. Yes, that still exist.

Anything else?

7th man upgrade seems to be the better choice and you don't have to pick a commander for it.

It's nothing individually, it's all of those things together, i guess. Oorah isnt much different from Sprint, sure, but Assgrens don't have any of the other stuff Cons do, that's my point.

I do think 7man and the other Conscript doctrinal upgrades shouldn't be exclusive to one another, as Mobilise is kind of an integral flavour component of Soviet/Conscripts (Despite being a relatively new feature)... but that would take rather a lot to balance. (I think its worth pursuing as an idea... but a tradeoff might have to be a that upgrade docs would lack Elite Infantry, as you're almost turning Cons into Elitish troops). This is the kind of quandry you get when the game gets frankenstein'd as it has been.

It wil take a long time for me too...

The relevance is: You are getting an assault unit in both cases as a result. One time as a call-in, another time buildable with upgrade. If you can't see a real relevance in the outcome here, I don't know what to say.

With the "tiny" difference that the 0 CP assault call-ins don't have to pay munition for their SMGs.

Another tinny difference is that those assault infatry are more expensive. In the end of they if in your opinion Soviet need a CP 0 assault infatry suggest that instead of asking a weapon upgrade to become CP 0.

The damage drop off is surely a good thing, but that results in anybody using PPsH Cons at midrange to fight other infantry units beeing a fool with the exception of the few cases where they fight another CC unit while it closes in.

The fact that they have mid DPS mean that they do damage to closing the distances.
It also means that they lose less close DPS when they drop models.

Bolt action and SMG is bad combination that should not be available but it has its perks.

I have no problem with PPsH and 7th man upgrade locking out each other, but the existence of the nondoc 7th man upgrade does make the PPsH upgrade even worse, because I do think 7man cons are the better choice for the late game.

Nope. PPsh is as good as it was before the 7th man upgrade. PPsh conscripts do not fight 7 men conscripts. This is a diversity issue and not balance. Buffing PPsh might solve the diversity issues but will cause balance issues or power creep.

Then move CP0 assaukt troop call-ins to 1 or 2 CPs too.

That is why I told you upgrade and call in infatry are not relevant.

They are worlds apart from other CC troops, I don't think their lower manpower cost justifies such a difference (and keep in mind they have to pay munition on top).

Compared to what? And one is not meant to use PPsh vs other CC troops but vs long troops.

Still it is the same outcome, the only differnce is the way to get there = after initial purchase method you get a CC unit in both cases

Not really. In order to have access to those doctrinal unit one has to committee to a doctrine in the first 10 secs.

Finally soemthing I can agree about. It makes no sense to have them next to each other in one commander.

glad to see that


In conclusion, if in your opinion Soviet need an CP 0 assault squad suggest that instead of asking to move the PPsh to CP 0. That would make both unit easier to balance.