Abandon

I agree completely, but for lack of changing automatch abandon immediately, I'm glad the tournament mod exists for tournaments atleast until it gets changed.

Its definitely good that they've GOT a separate balance patch for Tournaments at the moment, but I do hope Sanders and the other Balans guys bite the bullet and either remove Abandon/MGC from Automatch's patch (or rework them to be less pointlessly random) sooner rather than later.

an example for chasing controllable outcomes.

tightrope 2v2 rando casts >>>>>>> elite top 50 tourney
vonivan >>>>>>>>>>> hulk sulk

Hey so what's the salary like for a Starcraft 2 pro when compared to a CoH pro, if that's how you're wanting to assess things?

Are your personal assessments of casts/players relevant in a balance discussion?

Its definitely good that they've GOT a separate balance patch for Tournaments at the moment, but I do hope Sanders and the other Balans guys bite the bullet and either remove Abandon/MGC from Automatch's patch (or rework them to be less pointlessly random) sooner rather than later.

i hope not. removing from automatch? you mad?

i hope not. removing from automatch? you mad?

No, I'm pretty happy that good players/the balance team seem to agree that RNG Abandon and MGC are bad mechanics.

Hey so what's the salary like for a Starcraft 2 pro when compared to a CoH pro, if that's how you're wanting to assess things?

Are your personal assessments of casts/players relevant in a balance discussion?

coh pro can go play sc2 if thats the salary they are chasing. dont matter to me. does it affect you? /shrugs.

im sure the next 50 down will provide the same entertainment, and less anal about randonmess.

as someone mentioned, this balance discussion has become arguing for the sake of arguing at this point.

there is a lot of ideas brought up.

ultimately, randomness, mgc and abandon are mechanics of coh2. it is up to sega relic where to next. there are 7000 active players, im sure they can put out a vote to keep or delete this. there is no reason why a few forum members get to dictate the core mechanics.

No, I'm pretty happy that good players/the balance team seem to agree that RNG Abandon and MGC are bad mechanics.

thank god relic has veto powers still. i hope they dont let this slip up.

let 7000 players get to the vote.

Hey so what's the salary like for a Starcraft 2 pro when compared to a CoH pro, if that's how you're wanting to assess things?

Are your personal assessments of casts/players relevant in a balance discussion?

my assessment is that, randomness dont stop messi and football from earning big bucks and followings. so i blame hulk the sulk for not adapting to coh2, and wont put him up the pedestal.

and it seems coh2 popular issue is not down to randomness in that case.

probably due to the lack of prize money and marketing efforts.

coh pro can go play sc2 if thats the salary they are chasing. dont matter to me. does it affect you? /shrugs.

im sure the next 50 down will provide the same entertainment, and less anal about randonmess.

as someone mentioned, this balance discussion has become arguing for the sake of arguing at this point.

there is a lot of ideas brought up.

ultimately, randomness, mgc and abandon are mechanics of coh2. it is up to sega relic where to next. there are 7000 active players, im sure they can put out a vote to keep or delete this. there is no reason why a few forum members get to dictate the core mechanics.

The Balance isnt a democracy. The Balance team gets the final say on this, not "7000 active players".

Your assessment, by the way, is entirely meaningless then, given that you're inexplicably trying to compare the incomparable. Football isnt a videogame, and it isnt popular because it's "random", it's popular because it's an ancient, and widespread game that's been in cultural view for hundreds of years.

There is intentionally as little randomness as possible in Football, incidentally. The Football itself is engineered to be aerodynamic and fly in a predictable arc, and scoring is based on how many goals your team scores. You don't randomly get between 0.5-4 "goals" every time you kick the ball between the posts, nor does the field have concealed holes for players to fall down into, or random obstacles placed before the game. Your example doesn't even follow your argument.

CoH2 isnt popular because it doesn't get prize money/marketing efforts due to the fact most pro players/teams won't waste their time training for a game in which they might lose a tournament due to RNG, rather than because they played well.

Non pro players also get frustrated by RNG and poor balance such as this and leave the game as well.

You realise it isnt just "hulk" who doesn't like RNG Abandons and MGC, right? It's pretty much any pro (Or even just decent) CoH2 player.

The Balance isnt a democracy. The Balance team gets the final say on this, not "7000 active players".

Your assessment, by the way, is entirely meaningless then, given that you're inexplicably trying to compare the incomparable. Football isnt a videogame, and it isnt popular because it's "random", it's popular because it's an ancient, and widespread game that's been in cultural view for hundreds of years.

There is intentionally as little randomness as possible in Football, incidentally. The Football itself is engineered to be aerodynamic and fly in a predictable arc, and scoring is based on how many goals your team scores. You don't randomly get between 0.5-4 "goals" every time you kick the ball between the posts, nor does the field have concealed holes for players to fall down into, or random obstacles placed before the game. Your example doesn't even follow your argument.

CoH2 isnt popular because it doesn't get prize money/marketing efforts due to the fact most pro players/teams won't waste their time training for a game in which they might lose a tournament due to RNG, rather than because they played well.

Non pro players also get frustrated by RNG and poor balance such as this and leave the game as well.

You realise it isnt just "hulk" who doesn't like RNG Abandons and MGC, right? It's pretty much any pro (Or even just decent) CoH2 player.

yes it is a democracy. players can vote with the money and time.
relic does gets the final say.
killing off the core mechanics because a few forums members deemed it unworthy, not going to fly.
in fact, even in this topic, there are members who agree with randonmess and abandon to not kill it off. but to improve and expand on it.


football has rng
chess doesnt.

it is pretty clear, no?

football makes big money
chess doesnt

big money comes from audience willing to pay, willing to be entertained.
eek sports are dictated by small bunch players throwing fits to fit their idea world.

vonivan is totally ok with randomness. /shoutout respekt to von!
imo thats the spirit coh2 players should take. take randomness and get better.
take a different approach, outlook and expectations. not all rts has to be sc2 rock paper scissors mirror matchup.

removing abandon mgc and randomness is not improving coh. stop putting 'top' players up the pedestal.

and eek sports is not comparable to real sports if it chases chess like outcome. thats a fact.

Look, you need to stop whining and repeating yourself. You said what you had to say, for the love of god stop multiposting the same thing 100 times over. Just because you say it more than anyone else doesn't make you right.

Holy shit man.

Also top players are top players because they are good at the game and understand it to a degree that provides them a unique benefit to providing accurate information and (hopefully) reasonable input into changes. People are allowed to disagree or question their input based on whatever information that individual player has but if all of your input is mindless "I don't like strategy in my strategy game keep bad mechanics" that is asinine. If you want a WWII game without strategy, you shouldn't be playing a Real-Time-Strategy game. There are plenty of others to choose from where you can have mindless fun.

Obviously you're not in the crowd of people who play the game for any strategic purpose, but changing abandon (not removing) affects more than just the top upper echelon of players. It affects basically everyone in the top 1500 for every faction who even if they aren't very good at the game, still want to win and outplay their opponent which the abandon mechanics undermine. Your sheer and utter disregard for anyone who dares even consider playing the game above your level for a change that you won't even fundamentally notice baffles me. The only non-degrading thought I have is that you are either uninformed of how many people abandon affects, or you're simply being a contrarian for contrarian's sake.

Look, you need to stop whining and repeating yourself. You said what you had to say, for the love of god stop multiposting the same thing 100 times over. Just because you say it more than anyone else doesn't make you right.

Holy shit man.

Also top players are top players because they are good at the game and understand it to a degree that provides them a unique benefit to providing accurate information and (hopefully) reasonable input into changes. People are allowed to disagree or question their input based on whatever information that individual player has but if all of your input is mindless "I don't like strategy in my strategy game keep bad mechanics" that is asinine. If you want a WWII game without strategy, you shouldn't be playing a Real-Time-Strategy game. There are plenty of others to choose from where you can have mindless fun.

Obviously you're not in the crowd of people who play the game for any strategic purpose, but changing abandon (not removing) affects more than just the top upper echelon of players. It affects basically everyone in the top 1500 for every faction who even if they aren't very good at the game, still want to win and outplay their opponent which the abandon mechanics undermine. Your sheer and utter disregard for anyone who dares even consider playing the game above your level for a change that you won't even fundamentally notice baffles me. The only non-degrading thought I have is that you are either uninformed of how many people abandon affects, or you're simply being a contrarian for contrarian's sake.

what? im open with tweaking abandon and randomness but against completely dropping it unlike pip

i don't see how you think im contrarian for the sake of it. do you even read what you wrote and think it may applies to pip and perhaps yourself?

im definitely against the elitist view that randomness is a low skill low effort mechanic

The Balance isnt a democracy. The Balance team gets the final say on this, not "7000 active players".

Your assessment, by the way, is entirely meaningless then, given that you're inexplicably trying to compare the incomparable. Football isnt a videogame, and it isnt popular because it's "random", it's popular because it's an ancient, and widespread game that's been in cultural view for hundreds of years.

There is intentionally as little randomness as possible in Football, incidentally. The Football itself is engineered to be aerodynamic and fly in a predictable arc, and scoring is based on how many goals your team scores. You don't randomly get between 0.5-4 "goals" every time you kick the ball between the posts, nor does the field have concealed holes for players to fall down into, or random obstacles placed before the game. Your example doesn't even follow your argument.

CoH2 isnt popular because it doesn't get prize money/marketing efforts due to the fact most pro players/teams won't waste their time training for a game in which they might lose a tournament due to RNG, rather than because they played well.

Non pro players also get frustrated by RNG and poor balance such as this and leave the game as well.

You realise it isnt just "hulk" who doesn't like RNG Abandons and MGC, right? It's pretty much any pro (Or even just decent) CoH2 player.

The balance team is supposed to balance the game, not to remove GAME MECHANICS.

what? im open with tweaking abandon and randomness but against completely dropping it unlike pip

i don't see how you think im contrarian for the sake of it. do you even read what you wrote and think it may applies to pip and perhaps yourself?

im definitely against the elitist view that randomness is a low skill low effort mechanic

Randomness is factually a low-skill, low-effort mechanic. That isnt elitism, it's simply a fact that there is no skill involved in a random roll you cannot affect.

The balance team is supposed to balance the game, not to remove GAME MECHANICS.

Removing bad mechanics is part of balancing the game. Random flame crits, for example, were removed in the name of balance, because a random chance of an entire squad being wiped by a flamer burst or from stepping on a molotov is not actually a good game mechanic.

See also: Blizzard Tech.

Randomness is factually a low-skill, low-effort mechanic. That isnt elitism, it's simply a fact that there is no skill involved in a random roll you cannot affect.

it is in fact a higher skills mechanic, you need to prep and react for the unexpected, you need to consider the risk and rewards

something that mess up your trained and memorised order, no wonder hulk is sulky

it is in fact a higher skills mechanic, you need to prep for the unexpected, you need to consider the risk and rewards

When you have a 1-5% chance of something happening you cannot "prep" for it without reducing your capacity in the other 95% of cases, which is what a bad player would do. A good player is forced to play as though the chance does not exist, as doing otherwise would make you less effective overall.

There's no skill involved in low-percentage high-impact RNG when you cannot influence it, and I have no clue why you constantly insist there is.

snip comparing football

an example for chasing controllable outcomes.

if messi hits the post, he just trains harder and make sure he narrows the angles.

I guess someone didn't watch the World Cup 2010 or knows what the Jabulani is

See also: Blizzard Tech.

Go removed by relic.

Edit: A decision made by the developers themselves.

Go removed by relic.

Edit: A decision made by the developers themselves.

Ok, and? You realise that the Balance team has taken over from Lelic for the game's "development", right? These things were removed in the name of balance, it doesn't matter whether Lelic themselves did it, or if the current Balance team does it, if it improves the game overall.

pro players are tiny by the numbers though.

thats too bad. eek sports homogeneity is killing creativity. very narrow definition of balance.

we need more vonivans playing and less hulks crying about coh mechanics.

Not my point.
The point was that Katitof's claim of abandon having next to no influence is false.

every bits count. removing more possibilites and desire for controllable outcomes is bad outlook for coh3.

im sure if sega offered $1m prize money, and the top 20 players decide not to play because of abandon mgc rng, the next ladder down will still provide the same entertainment and viewership satisfaction.

it is just too narrow definition. too elitist to think randomness is poor quality, poor effort, aggression should always be 1 dimensional rewards, no risks.

i can throw back that football is the biggest sports in the world, messi 3 years salary crushes all pro-chess players in the world combined many times over. messi has spatial and physical intelligence and still trains as hard in his 30s like his 20s. hulk can continue sulking at coh mechanics /shrug.

Well you can have this opinion for sure. I don't though. I don't mind much if I lose or win a game, but I want a fair chance. I don't want to play a 30-60 min game to have it decided by a weird coin toss at the end, because then nothing of what I did mattered. It has nothing to do with elitism
And your football analogy is completely misplaced.

if messi hits the post, he just trains harder and make sure he narrows the angles.

Because he knows that the flight curve of the football is deterministic and that it was not decided by random chance, but by his own incapability. If it were to be decided by random chance, he'd not train at all. Nothing of this has to do with CoH and abandon.

Your example is an own goal (badum ts)

The abandon mechanic is more akin to Russian roulette. It either does not happen or you get critical failure/success. And there is nothing you can do about it, it is pure kuck and the game screws you over.